Mike's Oud Forums

Rast Samai by Jamil Bashir

Jody Stecher - 3-25-2013 at 07:02 PM

Does anyone know where to find a recording of the Rast Samai that was composed by Jamil Bashir? There are small differences between the version in his oud tutor (method book) and the version in The Maqam Anthology. I also have questions about the some of the non-Rast phrases in the teslim. These questions would be resolved by hearing the piece played. Thank you.
-jody

Jono Oud N.Z - 3-25-2013 at 10:18 PM

Hi.

Very good question.

I would like to hear a recording too (if one exists).

Could you please point out the differences please?

I may have made a mistake or possibly tried to fix what I thought was a mistake.

Here is another source (Turkish pitch).
(From Neyzen.com).

http://neyzen.com/rast.htm

It is an interesting piece, it seems to involve Nawa Athar a lot..

[file]26513[/file] [file]26515[/file]

Jody Stecher - 3-26-2013 at 05:46 AM

Thanks for the alternate source (and also for your book), Jono. Here are the differences:

In measure 2, the D might be "half sharp" in the Tutor. The printing is blurred but it appears to be one stem only. It appears in TMA as a full sharp.

In measure 6 the first note is marked as F natural in the Tutor. In TMA there is no indication that is not still sharp. It was sharpened as the second note in measure 5. I assume all the other F-s in measure 5 are also sharp. But then there is the question of whether an "accidental" continues for the remainder of the line or just for the remainder of the measure. I have seen both conventions applied in written music but don't know which is in effect in either book.

In measure 10 of TMA the first B (and by implication the second B as well) is marked as natural, changing it from the Rast B pitch in the key signature. That change does not appear in the Tutor. This raises the question of the intended pitch of B in measure 11.

In measure 13 the Tutor shows the D to be half sharp whereas TMA shows it to be full sharp.

In measure 17 (the second measure of hane 2) the first note appears in TMA as a B natural. In the Tutor it is an unaltered Rast B as indicated in the key signature. This raises the question of what the pitch should be of the last note in this measure which is also a B of some sort.

The same question about the pitch of B applies to measure 18. There is no indication of B natural in the Tutor but there is in TMA.

In measure 19 of the Tutor version there is a blurry symbol to the left of the second note which is A. It appears to be the symbol for natural. But that seems odd since A is already natural in Rast and the key signature indicates nothing about A being other than natural. TMA shows no change to A at this point. Is the Tutor showing this A natural as reminder that later in the measure the A will be flat?

Measure 21, the final measure of the second hane, the first note appears as D in the Tutor but in TMA it is C.

The last note in measure 24 (the fourth measure of the third hane) appears as A in the Tutor. In TMA there is no note at all, only a stem.

In measure 46, the penultimate measure of this samai, the F is sharp in TMA. In the tutor I can't tell what it is. It's black ink.

In the last measure the B is shown as natural in TMA but there is no indication of that in the Tutor.

Jody Stecher - 3-26-2013 at 06:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  
Hi.
Here is another source (Turkish pitch).
(From Neyzen.com).

http://neyzen.com/rast.htm



Hmmm, this one introduces microtonal pitches not indicated in either TMA or the Jamil Bashir tutor. I wonder what the source of this one is.

suz_i_dil - 3-26-2013 at 10:05 AM

This one ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvCGatSu-nI

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2013 at 10:37 AM

With all due respect, in comparing the versions of classical repertoire in Bashir's book with many recordings and printed sources, there are many instances where he was rather cavalier about accidentals.
There are some cases where it seemed that the modulation was so standard and obvious (to him) that he neglected to note all the accidentals.
One would think that with his own piece, he'd be more accurate, but in some cases it's even easier to make mistakes with something you know very well.
There are other issues with certain maqamat due to differences in Turkish/Iraqi/Arab practice where the intended pitch might be notated differently (a Turkish Rast notated as Arab Ajam, for instance).
My main point being, be careful with his book and try not to use it as a sole source.

Regarding the leading tone to sikah, it is a matter of some dispute whether this note should be written D sharp or D half-sharp; regardless of the convention, the same note is intended (we are after all not using 24TET but a subtler microtonal division).

Jody Stecher - 3-26-2013 at 12:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
This one ?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvCGatSu-nI
[/url]

yes! thank you, suz_i_dil. The start of the recording seems at odds with the notation of the first hane in any of the scores, but after that it corresponds well and now I can tell what was meant. thanks again for pointing out this recording.

Jono Oud N.Z - 3-26-2013 at 02:59 PM

Really good to hear a recording.
Thanks.:)

Jody Stecher - 3-27-2013 at 08:58 PM

Thanks to the youtube recording I can now answer my own questions. The first part of the samai is not heard so I can't say about measure two, but measure six does begin with an F natural.

The B notes in measure 10 are half flat, in accord with the key signature, and are not B natural.

Measure 13 is a bit of a mystery.

The B notes in measures 17 and 18 *are* natural.
The first A in measure 19 is natural.

Measure 20, the last measure of Hane 2 begins with a D.

to be be continued
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Thanks for the alternate source (and also
for your book), Jono. Here are the differences:

In measure 2, the D might be "half sharp" in the Tutor. The printing is blurred but it appears to be one stem only. It appears in TMA as a full sharp.

In measure 6 the first note is marked as F natural in the Tutor. In TMA there is no indication that is not still sharp. It was sharpened as the second note in measure 5. I assume all the other F-s in measure 5 are also sharp. But then there is the question of whether an "accidental" continues for the remainder of the line or just for the remainder of the measure. I have seen both conventions applied in written music but don't know which is in effect in either book.

In measure 10 of TMA the first B (and by implication the second B as well) is marked as natural, changing it from the Rast B pitch in the key signature. That change does not appear in the Tutor. This raises the question of the intended pitch of B in measure 11.

In measure 13 the Tutor shows the D to be half sharp whereas TMA shows it to be full sharp.

In measure 17 (the second measure of hane 2) the first note appears in TMA as a B natural. In the Tutor it is an unaltered Rast B as indicated in the key signature. This raises the question of what the pitch should be of the last note in this measure which is also a B of some sort.


The same question about the pitch of B applies to measure 18. There is no indication of B natural in the Tutor but there is in TMA.

In measure 19 of the Tutor version there is a blurry symbol to the left of the second note which is A. It appears to be the symbol for natural. But that seems odd since A is already natural in Rast and the key signature indicates nothing about A being other than natural. TMA shows no change to A at this point. Is the Tutor showing this A natural as reminder that later in the measure the A will be flat?

Measure 21, the final measure of the second hane, the first note appears as D in the Tutor but in TMA it is C.

The last note in measure 24 (the fourth measure of the third hane) appears as A in the Tutor. In TMA there is no note at all, only a stem.

In measure 46, the penultimate measure of this samai, the F is sharp in TMA. In the tutor I can't tell what it is. It's black ink.

In the last measure the B is shown as natural in TMA but there is no indication of that in the Tutor.

Jody Stecher - 3-28-2013 at 08:19 AM

And to complete the "questionnaire":

The missing note in TMA at the end of measure 24 is an A natural.

The F in measure 46 *is* sharp.

The B just before the last note of measure 47 is played by Jamil Bashir higher than his usual Rast B and lower than natural. What he meant it to be is beyond my capacity to know.
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Thanks for the alternate source (and also for your book), Jono. Here are the differences:

In measure 2, the D might be "half sharp" in the Tutor. The printing is blurred but it appears to be one stem only. It appears in TMA as a full sharp.

In measure 6 the first note is marked as F natural in the Tutor. In TMA there is no indication that is not still sharp. It was sharpened as the second note in measure 5. I assume all the other F-s in measure 5 are also sharp. But then there is the question of whether an "accidental" continues for the remainder of the line or just for the remainder of the measure. I have seen both conventions applied in written music but don't know which is in effect in either book.

In measure 10 of TMA the first B (and by implication the second B as well) is marked as natural, changing it from the Rast B pitch in the key signature. That change does not appear in the Tutor. This raises the question of the intended pitch of B in measure 11.

In measure 13 the Tutor shows the D to be half sharp whereas TMA shows it to be full sharp.

In measure 17 (the second measure of hane 2) the first note appears in TMA as a B natural. In the Tutor it is an unaltered Rast B as indicated in the key signature. This raises the question of what the pitch should be of the last note in this measure which is also a B of some sort.

The same question about the pitch of B applies to measure 18. There is no indication of B natural in the Tutor but there is in TMA.

In measure 19 of the Tutor version there is a blurry symbol to the left of the second note which is A. It appears to be the symbol for natural. But that seems odd since A is already natural in Rast and the key signature indicates nothing about A being other than natural. TMA shows no change to A at this point. Is the Tutor showing this A natural as reminder that later in the measure the A will be flat?

Measure 21, the final measure of the second hane, the first note appears as D in the Tutor but in TMA it is C.

The last note in measure 24 (the fourth measure of the third hane) appears as A in the Tutor. In TMA there is no note at all, only a stem.

In measure 46, the penultimate measure of this samai, the F is sharp in TMA. In the tutor I can't tell what it is. It's black ink.

In the last measure the B is shown as natural in TMA but there is no indication of that in the Tutor.


Jono Oud N.Z - 3-28-2013 at 08:26 PM

Well done:).
Thank you for clarifying these issues.

I must admit that I found this very confusing - the different versions and his recording as well.