Mike's Oud Forums

how to record an oud in studio?

danieletarab - 4-5-2013 at 11:00 AM

Hello everybody!
I am making several recordings of oud in a studio. We have no idea of how to put the microphones. We have different mic: standard mic like shure 57 and 58, phantom mic (Akg, senneizer, neumann), but we don't know if there's a good way to place them. Any idea?
Thank you!

Jody Stecher - 4-5-2013 at 01:35 PM

It is likely that the engineer will have a good idea what to use and how to use it but just in case not, here are some basic ideas.

Place the five most likely microphones in more or less the same area in front of the oud face, maybe 8 inches from the face. It could be more or less. Record 30 seconds of music and play back the sound of each mic one by one. When you decide on the sound you like remove the other microphones and put on a set of headphones. You won't be hearing the real recorded sound but you won't need to to do that for the next phase. Position yourself slightly to the right, to the left, up, down. See which sound is best. Note the relationship between the oud and mic which sounded best. Now sit normally and have the engineer move the mic to have that relationship to the oud.

Further refinement: use 2 microphones to create a perceived audio *area* of oud sound, as opposed to a point. Separate the two channels slightly in the pan. Not too wide a pan, just a bit.

I would begin with the condenser mic-s and not even bother with the Shure dynamic mic-s at first. But it really depends on the sound of the oud and the style of the player. How much sound from the risha is there? Some mic-s will subdue the "click" sound of risha touching string. Some will increase it. Others will reproduce it accurately. What is wanted depends on your aesthetics. For solo oud, too much click can be annoying. In the context of an ensemble that click can be your friend, as it can clarify the separate strokes and make the music sound articulate. But one man's "articulate' is another man's "noise".

I hope this helps. good luck.

ameer - 4-5-2013 at 03:11 PM

Another thing to consider is that some mics allow you to adjust the level of click with less impact on the overall sound. For example I use an Audio-Technica at4050 set to omni mode and in its initial form the highs are way too much. But in bringing them down I not only get a mor normal sound, I can actually reduce the click of the risha without too much impact on the overall sound. This would be impossible using an SM57 or similar. I'll see if I can't record a quick clip to demonstrate.

Jody Stecher - 4-5-2013 at 06:24 PM

Also I would recommend recording "dry", that is to say with no EQ, and no reverb or echo. These can be added (or not) later. Work with a pristine initial recording. Recording with a small amount of compression may possibly be beneficial. But maybe not.

Microber - 4-6-2013 at 02:53 AM

If the room where you make the recording has a nice natural reverberation, it is possible to place an additional microphone far from the instrument. Later when you mix, you can use that track even at the lowest volume as a natural reverb.
And as Jody recommends, recording dry is always better.
It is also important to know if there are other instruments playing with the oud.
You have to consider that each instrument must have its place in the "sound spectrum".
Frankly it is not an easy job !
A job for a sound engineer.
Best of luck with your recording.
Please, share your experience.

Robert

danieletarab - 4-6-2013 at 07:20 AM

Dear guys, thanks a lot!
Of course I'll share my experience!
The thing is that I'm recording a self-produced record of my own compositions and I am working in a friend's studio. I pay much less than in any other studios, but the guy working there is brilliant in editing, and quite good in manage pop music, but he doesn't really have any idea of how to amplify acoustic instruments :)
I will follow all of your suggestions and I'll let you know!
Thanks again!
Daniele

Jody Stecher - 4-6-2013 at 08:00 AM

Some pop music engineers tend to have the idea that any microphone and any/every sound is viable because it is all "raw material" for "exploitation". In the field of pop they are not wrong. If you tell the engineer you want to get a recorded sound that is as close to the natural sound of the oud you are playing, as played by you, he will probably understand. You might get a friendly argument in which he says that your oud sounds different in different parts of the room and different when the humidity is high and when it is low and therefore "the natural sound" does not exist. Again he will not be entirely wrong but just politely persevere.

Also, a recurring problem acoustic musicians have in the studio (and often on stage) is that the sound engineer and/or producer doesn't actually listen to the real sound of the particular instrument as it sounds when there is no microphone. They go for a sound that corresponds to an *idea* of a sound they have. They often carry around a mental model of what " a guitar", "an oud", " a clarinet" etc sounds like, and this gets in the way of giving the listener an amplified or recorded likeness of what each *particular* guitar, oud, or clarinet etc actually sounds like.

In my opinion it is worth spending whatever time it takes to get the sound right. An hour is not a lot of time. It can take longer but so long as the atmosphere is cordial and friendly it should not be a painful process, but quite enjoyable and educational as well.


Quote: Originally posted by danieletarab  
Dear guys, thanks a lot!
Of course I'll share my experience!
The thing is that I'm recording a self-produced record of my own compositions and I am working in a friend's studio. I pay much less than in any other studios, but the guy working there is brilliant in editing, and quite good in manage pop music, but he doesn't really have any idea of how to amplify acoustic instruments :)
I will follow all of your suggestions and I'll let you know!
Thanks again!
Daniele

Brian Prunka - 4-6-2013 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
S

Also, a recurring problem acoustic musicians have in the studio (and often on stage) is that the sound engineer and/or producer doesn't actually listen to the real sound of the particular instrument as it sounds when there is no microphone. They go for a sound that corresponds to an *idea* of a sound they have. They often carry around a mental model of what " a guitar", "an oud", " a clarinet" etc sounds like, and this gets in the way of giving the listener an amplified or recorded likeness of what each *particular* guitar, oud, or clarinet etc actually sounds like.


This is very true, particularly on stage. If you work with pro studios, this is less of a problem in recording, but often still a problem with certain instruments (I find the concept of what a "bass" sounds like is particularly hard to overcome for many engineers, "piano" is a close second).

I find a mic about a foot to a foot and half away, pointed roughly around the space in between the soundhole and neck (where an extended fingerboard would be) is often a good starting point. I've had good results with different kinds of mics.

I find small-diaphragm condensers seem to be easiest to work with overall. Large-diaphragm condensers are great if they are very good, but often pick up more pick noise and any face-clicking that occurs.
Ribbons are warm and forgiving but don't work as well if the room doesn't sound great or if there are other instruments playing with you.

Avoid getting too close or pointing it directly at the soundhole, either of which can give a very unnatural bass response that will take a lot of EQ to fix.

David.B - 4-7-2013 at 01:49 AM

Hello Daniele,

I write here just to add this list from the OUD FAQ THREAD:

"Microphones
This is by no means a complete listing.
Some microphones that have been used by members of the forum:

External mics-
MXL 991/603
Shure Sm 57
Beyerdynamic M88
AKG C -1000
Rode M3
IMK 4061 Instrument Microphone kit (dpamicrophones.com)
Isomax 2 (countryman.com)
Neumann KM 184

Mics/pickups attached onto the oud-
Note: some of the mics/pickups below may require one or more of the following: use of an external preamp or internal battery, clip-on unit, installation of an endpin jack and/or other modifications.
If in doubt, check with the manufacturer on proper installation and use. Professional installation is always recommended.

KKsound.com:
K&K Hot Spot
K&K Twin Spot
K&K Pure Mini
K&K Pure Classic
K&K Big Shot Internal

shadow-electronics.com:
Shadow SH 700 NFX pick-up system
Shadow SH 717 NFX pick up system

Viken Najarian transducer (Najarian Music)
AKG C 411 (akg.com)
Schertler Dyn G (Schertler.com)
B-Band (b-band.com)
IMK 4061 Instrument Microphone kit (dpamicrophones.com)

Audio Technica AT831 b

Fishman, LR Baggs or B-Band under-saddle transducer pickup systems:
Note: these are usually installed by the oudmaker into the bridge and oud when the oud is made. Please check with your oudmaker for the best system for your requirements.

External mics that have been used by some professionals:
(usually a combination of 2 or more mics)

Adel Salameh: DPA 4099 and Nuemann KM184

Nizar Rohana: Shure Sm57 and AKG C-1000

Joseph Tawadros: Uses his built in mic pickup installed by Veysel and Cengiz Sarikus, often with an external condenser mic.

Basem Darwisch: DPA 4061 and AKG C414

Haytham Safia: Nuemann KM 184 plus one on the oud (e.g. B-Band AST)"

---------------------------------------

Personally I use an AT4047 MP. To me it sounds warm enough although there's no tube, but it's not very "airy".

Also (slightly off topic), I am a newbie to home studio and I was wondering how you remove the noise of foot beats? I use EQ, but I don't want to remove too much low frequencies, I have not tried the Noise Gate yet, is this a solution?

Jody Stecher - 4-7-2013 at 06:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  

Also (slightly off topic), I am a newbie to home studio and I was wondering how you remove the noise of foot beats? I use EQ, but I don't want to remove too much low frequencies, I have not tried the Noise Gate yet, is this a solution?


A recording space should not have much (or any) floor reverberation. A home studio is less of a controlled environment however. In that case the best solution is to keep the feet still. If that is not possible, shoe removal is recommended. A pillow under the foot helps. In some cases the vibrations in the floor caused by foot beats are transmitted through the base of the microphone stand to the microphone stand and to the microphone itself. (This is particularly true on stages where there is empty space below the stage floor). By padding the area of the floor under the mic stand with sound-deading foam or other material, the foot sound may be reduced. Of course the part of the sound that is transmitted through the air will still be recorded by the microphone. EQ and Noise Gates are not recommended except for those moments where there is only foot tapping and no oud (or other music). There are various digital tools that can do an amazing job at locating and "deboomifyiing " these moments, when well guided by a savvy engineer.

David.B - 4-7-2013 at 07:52 AM

Thanks :)

I'm on a wooden floor and it accumulates all the problems you describe. I've already tried everything you wrote ... A real pillow is the best, but the rhythm becomes very imprecise. As I'm not pro, I'll do with it. I'm thinking of using the metronome of the DAW and keep the feet still, probably the best solution.