Mike's Oud Forums

What oud size for "Arabic" sound

alim - 4-8-2013 at 01:11 PM


Hello:

For the typical "Arabic" sound, does a oud have to have a larger scale length (60cm - 61cm)?

I currently play and prefer a shorter scale length oud (58.5cm) but it sounds more Turkish and less Arabic.

I am wondering of scale length is a factor that affects the type of sound.

I am told that for classical guitars, the "Torres" sound is optimal at 64cm - 65cm. For smaller scale sizes that sound is lost.

Thanks,

Ali-

Brian Prunka - 4-8-2013 at 02:07 PM

Most Arabic ouds are longer, 60-62cm. However, while this affects the sound, it isn't the most important factor. I have a 59cm oud and it sounds very Arabic, and there are many shorter Arabic ouds, 58-59cm.

The bigger issue is the bracing of the top, this really determines the sound. I'm sure some of the luthiers here have more specific details, but the scale isn't the big factor.

I have also played longer scale ouds that didn't sound very Arabic, because of the way they were made (and preferences of the maker).

hamed - 4-8-2013 at 02:40 PM

Do you think a cedar top will produce a better arabic sound?? maybe a cedar and walnut combo? I'm going to order a new oud in a few months and i want it to sound very traditional arabic so this topic is very interesting to me.
Thanks

SamirCanada - 4-9-2013 at 05:18 AM

I agree with Brian,

From my personal experience, the string length will affect the sound overall but its mostly due to the added tension from the string length but with an adjustment in string guages a 58.5 cm can achieve that "tarab" classical arabic style sound if the top is braced in a way that will provide for it. Also, I find that tuning down, and reducing the tension provides for a better sound.

I have myself a 62 cm Shehata that doesnt have a very arabic sound, I would say it sounds more Iraqi (classical guitarish alsmost).

Also, I beleive that the top must be braced to vibrate more freely for the arabic sound and tighter/stiffer bracing for the clear turkish sound. I believe that the 2 braces in front and the one behind the bridge are the most important. I find for the arabic sound, the first brace in front must be a little further away from the bridge for the sound board to vibrate more around the bridge. I think of it as what happens to a derbake if for example you move your non striking hand closser and closser gradually towards the striking hand against skin of the drum. you notice the sound gets sharper and crisper. Basically if a brace was almost directly under the bridge that would be too stiff to vibrate properly.
Nothing scientific here, just my personal intuition about bracing.

It is hard to control the frequency responce of braces as well, unless you have advanced equipement to tune each brace to a certain response, I have no control over this like most luthier so I use my gut feeling and some luck. There is no doubt that once the oud is finished you can sing in the bowl and you will notice that some notes will make the oud come alive. The same will hapen when those notes are played on the strings. if you sing in two different ouds, you will notice that the frequency that makes them come alive is not the same. To me the best ouds I have played had very responsive C, F, G and A.

Hamed, I personally would stick to engleman spruce, I found it to be the best for ouds. It also matures very well. I dont like cedar for oud making anymore, I think it was a fad borowed from the guitar world but truthfully it doesnt come close to spruce in my opinion. Walnut for sure is a great tone wood for oud, you cant go wrong with that.

Jody Stecher - 4-9-2013 at 06:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hamed  
Do you think a cedar top will produce a better arabic sound?? maybe a cedar and walnut combo? I'm going to order a new oud in a few months and i want it to sound very traditional arabic so this topic is very interesting to me.
Thanks


I can't think of any quality of cedar that suggests it is more Arabic sounding than another wood. It is viable tone wood and many string players are happy with its sound. I personally prefer spruce of any variety. Cedar needs very little maturing time. An oud with a cedar top is likely to sound similar when new as it will a year later, and 10 years later. A well-made oud with a spruce top that is regularly played will sound good when new, and great six months later, and greater yet in a year etc. Also: The sound of cedar tends to be diffuse. The sound of spruce tends to be focussed.

hamed - 4-9-2013 at 06:40 AM

Interesting info about string length and bracing. I guess i just assumed cedar would be better for an arabic oud since it is known to have a warmer sound and not as bright as spruce. But then again this is all info i've seen on guitar forums and such, maybe not pertaining as much to the oud.
Thanks guys.

Jody Stecher - 4-9-2013 at 07:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hamed  
Interesting info about string length and bracing. I guess i just assumed cedar would be better for an arabic oud since it is known to have a warmer sound and not as bright as spruce. But then again this is all info i've seen on guitar forums and such, maybe not pertaining as much to the oud.
Thanks guys.


Cedar is not warmer, no matter what instrument it is used on. Cedar's quick response at all frequencies, including bass and lower midrange, is sometimes mistaken for "warmth". Cedar can also be "vague" sounding (not always) and this is also mistaken for warmth. Yes, spruce has clarity but that is not the same as "brightness" which usually means lack of bass or lower mids. The opposite is true. All this assumes good construction and knowledge of bracing.

jdowning - 4-9-2013 at 11:25 AM

For my information - what species of 'cedar' as a sound board material is being referred to here?

hamed - 4-9-2013 at 12:30 PM

Hi Jdowning,
I was referring to western red cedar. From what I have read on these forums the lebanese cedar is unsuitable for soundboards due to its high sap content. However, a friend of mine has an older oud with a lebanese cedar sound board and it sounds -and smells great! I personally wouldn't want lebanese cedar anyway because of environmental implications.
Alim, sorry if I have derailed this subject.

alim - 4-9-2013 at 12:59 PM

No problem Hamed, my question was answered, any extra information is welcome :)

Ali-

jdowning - 4-9-2013 at 02:01 PM

Thank you hamed - I was just curious as there are many more varieties of cedar - other than Cedar of Lebanon - that might possibly make a suitable sound board material and was only wondering if others have tried any of these as alternatives to Western Red 'Cedar'

danyel - 4-9-2013 at 04:01 PM

Western red cedar is actually Thuja plicata, a species in the cypress family (Cupressaceae). It is endemic in northern America. Hence it is certainly not a traditional choice for an oud; yet I have a Turkish 'ûd with a "red cedar" belly that is excellent. But how about proper cypress Cupressus sempervirens (سرو)? It is explicitly recommended both by Ibn at-Tahhan and the Kanz at-Tuhaf, harpsichord sound boards were made of it and flamenco guitars still are; my "Timurid" oud kâmil has a cypress belly with which I am very pleased. Juniperus oxycedrus would be another option. Allegedly, Gasparo di Salò made viole and violini with Cedrus libani soundboards.

SamirCanada - 4-9-2013 at 05:46 PM

In my limited experience, I have used Port Orford cedar and western red cedar for tops and I have found them to be inferior to spruce in terms of sound for the oud. My sample is not big enough though so I am sure it could be used to make a decent sounding oud, I just have found that the sound of spruce keeps improving noticeably over time so why not stick to the tested and true wood... I am not going to make 100's of ouds in my lifetime so the ones I will make from now on will be using spruce.

If there is one thing about cedar is that it is easy to find boards with tight grain which makes for a very attractive instrument! I find western red cedar with a light shellac coat stunning but I dont think its worth to compromise the sound.

jdowning - 4-10-2013 at 05:15 AM

It would make sense for mediaeval luthiers of the Middle Eastern regions to use locally available woods such as Cupressus sempervirens for sound boards although, no doubt, they also made use of more 'exotic' woods imported from further afield. I am interested to know if oud makers today still use the same species - or is everyone now dependant on the convenient (and costly) offerings of the luthier supply industry catering primarily to guitar makers?
Cedar of Lebanon sometimes appears on the timber market but seems to be of poor quality - unsuitable for sound boards - the sad consequence of over exploitation of the species no doubt.

Like the 'cedars', spruce comes in various 'flavours' - most notably American/Canadian Sitka spruce for sound boards so is not a traditional material for either ouds or lutes. Fir species (Abies) might be a better choice for traditionalists - at least for lutes.

At the end of the day - regardless of choice of wood and its cosmetic appearance - it is the skill and experience of the luthier that will make the difference between a 'good' sounding instrument and a 'bad' sounding one.

hamed - 4-10-2013 at 07:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  


At the end of the day - regardless of choice of wood and its cosmetic appearance - it is the skill and experience of the luthier that will make the difference between a 'good' sounding instrument and a 'bad' sounding one.

Well said!

Whether or not cedar is a traditional choice for oud, I have been seeing more and more cedar topped ouds from reputable builders that I think have a very traditional arabic sound. Here are a few examples which many of you may have already viewed
http://youtu.be/7Q-KJ1vHidw
http://youtu.be/eNr9ygxBQ-Q
http://youtu.be/-alZkJPMMYI

Oud Freak - 4-11-2013 at 12:38 AM

In fact, no rule for spruce or cedar to be more traditional. It is first of all a matter of taste. I have read on some guitar websites/forums abt the issue. Some say: cedar wood sound is dark, other say it is bright. Some say spruce allows a more precise playing, some others say they prefer cedar because it gives a more precise tone and so on... very contradictory opinions, because purely subjective...

I used to hate cedar wood sound, now I am more and more in love with it. I have tried spruce ouds and cedar ouds at Nazih Ghadban's. Both kinds are gorgeous and so arabic and traditional. However, I fully agree with Mr. Stecher on his description about the main difference between cedar/spruce.

My subjective opinion is that spruce, the more it is played, the more it becomes powerful and rich and precise, the sound is clear and sweeeet like honey. Cedar appears to be more punchy, more metallic, darker, rich and "فجّ" at the same time, like a delicious tasty arabic coffee with cardamome. I need both :cool:

I find spruce sound to be white like spruce, and cedar sound, darker, more brown, like cedar color!