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Problem with bridge/peg holes and strings - Help!

oudy allen - 6-3-2013 at 06:09 AM

Hello folks,

Today I've received my new Faruk Türünz oud which was especially designed for Arab tuning. I was changing the strings and faced a problem when I tried to change the third and fourth course (the one, which is usually tuned G). I realized that the bridge holes are way too small for my standard Pyramid orange strings (which are made for arabic ouds) ( http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php?products_id=8218&am... ). They didn't fit through.

The same problem with the peg holes. Before my new Türünz oud I had a Sukar oud for which the strings fit perfectly. Is the problem due to very small holes or am I just using the wrong strings? Since the oud was designed for arabic tuning I thought that I could use strings made for arabic ouds. I would really appreciate your help.

Thank you very much!

Brian Prunka - 6-3-2013 at 07:30 AM

I believe you mean the second course, which comprises the third and fourth strings?

A typical oud has six courses, each course is is composed of two strings (except the lowest course, which is one string).

The second course on the Pyramid orange set is somewhat thick, about .031in or .80mm. This is not excessive, however, particularly on shorter-scale ouds (which I expect is the case for Turunz).

Widening the holes to accommodate that string is no big deal and has no real downside. Any competent luthier could do it. You could do it yourself if you have a small drill called a "pin vise":
They cost between $3 and $20 (you also need the very small drill bits) and are a handy tool for an oudist to have.

oudy allen - 6-3-2013 at 09:23 AM

Hi Brian,

first, let me thank you for your reply. Of course you are right. I was referring to the second course comprising of the third and fourth strings but I also had the same problems with the third course (fifth and sixth strings).

To be honest, I wouldn't like to widen the holes myself. I would just prefer to use another string set that is fitting, although I really like the orange Pyramids. Could I just use the Turkish string set of Pyramid which should contain thinner strings? Of course I would still tune it C-G-A-d-g-c as always. Maybe you also have other solid strings in mind? Do you think this would be a possible solution?

Best Regards!

oudy allen - 6-3-2013 at 09:24 AM

For example this one here:

http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php/products_id/1943

Jody Stecher - 6-3-2013 at 10:45 AM

Congratulations on your new oud. Faruk Tarunz ouds are high quality instruments. In my opinion you will not get the response and the sound quality your new instrument is capable of when using strings of lesser quality. I'd recommend the *other* Pyramid, the lute strings. (I never have been been able to work out the relationship, if any, between the cheap and expensive strings called Pyramid.). The lute strings are shockingly expensive but they respond so well on FT ouds. I've played 4 or 5 of these, including those built for Arabic tuning. There are of course, many other string options. I'm particularly mentioning the Pyramid lute strings because they fit the peg and bridge holes on all the ouds I have seen from the Faruk Tarunz workshop. What strings were on the oud when you received it? What about these strings was unsatisfactory?

Brian Prunka - 6-3-2013 at 11:04 AM

I wouldn't really recommend the Turkish set for Arabic tuning. The second course is .028in and this is too light for Arabic tuning on the short scale length that I expect your oud uses.

What is the string length of your oud? Turkish instruments are generally 58.5cm.

For that length, I would use .030 nylon, or the Aquila 26o or 44o, or PVF .68mm or thereabouts. Aquila and PVF are denser than nylon and so you can use slightly thinner strings. You could keep the wound Pyramid strings and buy separate strings for the plain courses.

As Jody says, the Pyramid "lute" strings are the better strings and are a better choice for such a high quality oud. Savarez "lute" strings are of similar quality and also a good choice. These are all customizable as they offer a wide range of individual strings, not prepackaged sets.

However, an Arabic oud should be able to accommodate a string of at least .030 thickness and personally I would widen the hole if it didn't accept a nylon string that thick.

Are you using a wound or plain third course? If a wound dd won't fit through the holes there is a serious problem. I wouldn't be surprised about a plain dd, since Turkish players never use a plain third course and Turunz probably wouldn't anticipate it. But a wound dd is between .020" and .025", the hole should absolutely not be smaller than that.

The Kurschner strings with PVF are an option, but they are much brighter sounding than Pyramid or Savarez and I think they will make this particular oud sound more Turkish than Arabic.

Brian Prunka - 6-3-2013 at 11:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

(I never have been been able to work out the relationship, if any, between the cheap and expensive strings called Pyramid.).

Pyramid makes many kinds of strings, the expensive ones are their "Historical instrument" strings aka "lute" strings. They are made with stricter quality control and finer materials, as well as very precise fine gradations of tensions to accommodate every possibility. They are expensive but worth it. The regular Pyramid "oud" sets, while good strings are not at all the same (despite being made by the same factory).
The "Three Pyramids" brand of string that shows up from time to time are entirely unrelated.

Jody Stecher - 6-3-2013 at 12:56 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Brian.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

(I never have been been able to work out the relationship, if any, between the cheap and expensive strings called Pyramid.).

oudy allen - 6-3-2013 at 01:34 PM

Thank you, Jody. I am also very happy to finally call this terrific oud my own but unfortunately I haven't been able yet to play it properly due to the string problems I have.
I can't say anything regarding the lute strings since I have never had the pleasure to give them a try but I would love to test them. Do you happen to know how thick the strings are?

Brian, the string lenght of my oud is 58,5 cm. I've found out that using the standard orange Pyramids leads to problems on the second course (the bridge holes are too small for the standard plain 0,8mm strings) and on the third course (here only on the peg holes, which are way too small to get the plain dd through - using the wound third course would work). I am using plain strings on the first three courses but I've realized that I better switch to wound strings on the third course due to the relatively small holes.

Do you know thick the Aquila strings you mentioned are? If I decide to widen the second and the third course holes (on pegs and bridge) accordingly, how big should the holes be? Exactly 0,8mm (second course) and 1mm (third course) or more? Maybe I should just ask a luthier to get this job done. It shouldn't be that costly, I think.

I didn't know that changing the oud might cause such issues.

Jody Stecher - 6-3-2013 at 04:21 PM

For 58.5 cm scale the Pyramid "lute" g would be more than .030 inches in rectified nylon. Probably 0,875 mm, about .03445 inches. I just measured an Aquila g from a so-called "light" Arabic tuning set (not really light tension) and it was just over .030 inches. Gosh, maybe you do need bigger holes.

Quote: Originally posted by oudy allen

Thank you, Jody.Do you happen to know how thick the strings are?

Brian Prunka - 6-3-2013 at 08:25 PM

Actually for 58.5in I would personally use about .030in or .750mm.
Anything over .032 would be excessive in my opinion.

In my experience, the plain d and g strings actually respond better with thinner strings despite the low tension; nylon tends to sound a bit dull at heavier thicknesses.

The lute strings are available in any gauge you want. You should talk to Turunz and ask him what strings he put on it to start with. Did you like those strings? I would bet he used Kurschner. A PVF string for g on 58.5cm would probably be about .027in. You can get custom PVF gauges to some extent from Pyramid or Savarez. This would be the best (only, really) choice if you really didn't want to modify the holes and want to use Arabic tuning.

The main advantage of PVF or Aquila is that they can give you a bit more tension while using thinner strings.

Last I checked, the "light" Aquila g was about .031in, but they did change the formula since then and it may have changed slightly.

You could use the 26o Turkish second course; Aquila's tension is high enough to comfortably use Arabic tuning.

1st course strings are between .015 (light high f) to .028 (high tension Arabic nylon), the dd course goes from about .036 to .041 if plain or .020 to .025 if wound. The low C is up to 1.2mm wound; by far the thickest string. You could have a luthier do this, you should just get an idea of what you want. Maybe one of the luthiers on here will chime in with some specific advice.

I would widen the gg to about .031-.032, but there would be little harm in widening it to .035 or so. There's no reason not to use a plain d, but it is a bit more challenging on a short oud due to the inherent limits of nylon. PVF is more forgiving.

I've never encountered an oud where the size of the holes was a problem from being too large for the strings.

gkhouri - 6-3-2013 at 11:07 PM

oudy allen: FWIW, these are the gauges I measured for the Pyramid Premium strings (purchased from Brian!) in inches and mm:

inches mm
c 0.024 0.610
g 0.029 0.730
d 0.020 0.510
A 0.025 0.630
F 0.028 0.710
C 0.042 1.060

George

jdowning - 6-4-2013 at 05:26 AM

What was the problem with the strings that originally came with the oud?

oudy allen - 6-4-2013 at 01:10 PM

Hello guys,

thanks to all of you for your contribution. It seems that I've fixed my problem. Today I went to a luthier who widened the respective holes on the bridge and on the pegs. Now, I've just put the orange Pyramid set on the oud and I have to say that the oud really sounds stunning. Well, I need to wait a few days until the strings stabilize but that is normal. Brian was right, jdowning, Faruk Turunz has told me today that there were Kurschner strings on the oud but I didn't like them because they sounded rather Turkish than Arabic, in my opinion. I think it was the right choice to change the strings and use the standard Pyramid strings.

George, thanks for the valuable information. Perhaps one day I'll get some lute strings and try them since everybody is praising them.

By the way, speaking of Arabic sounding strings, what others strings do you have in mind when talking about typical Arabic sound? The orange Pyramids are fine but what else is there to discover?

Best Regards!

Brian Prunka - 6-4-2013 at 06:38 PM

I think you might enjoy the Savarez copper lute strings. Also, Pyramid makes a set (652, "yellow") that is similar to the orange set but uses bronze instead of silver, you may like those.

oudy allen - 6-5-2013 at 03:26 AM

Ok, I'll keep them in mind and next time I might give them a try. Thanks a lot!