Mike's Oud Forums

oud repair California?

slev - 6-29-2013 at 11:24 PM

Good evening, I am in California.

I am having some trouble with my oud. The 5th, 4th and 2nd pairs of strings on my oud sound really bad. I noticed the behind the floating* bridge torwards the back is a small sink in the soundboard. I purchased a new set of strings to see if it would help my first problem which was the 6th set sounded bad but now it has gotten worse? I use DGADGC & sometimes EABEAD. I have attempted to try moving the bridge up or down the sound board with different results all resulting in bad sound.

If there's photos needed just ask.

Details of oud.

Floating bridge.
12 string, strung to 11.
No label inside (has maybe fell out at one time).
No visual cracks,splits,chips or water damage.
D'Addario J95 strings.
Length of oud from the top of the bridge(where the string bend to the pegs) to the very back where the holes are in the sound board is: 28 inches.
One large hole in soundbox and two small holes on the sides.

DoggerelPundit - 6-30-2013 at 11:15 AM

Hi Slev,

While we are waiting for the more knowledgeable here to weigh in, allow me to point out that the string length measurement you want is that between the bridge and the nut, i.e. the length of the part of the string doing the vibrating. From what I have read here, that would be around 62 centimeters for Arabic ouds, and around 58 centimeters for Turkish ouds.

My guess is that your floating bridge oud is an Arabic one. If so, it's generally not a good idea to tune it up to EABEAD, especially if you are using heavier Arabic instrument strings. On a floating bridge, the extra tension might, over time, depress soundboard in the way you describe.

-Stephen

slev - 6-30-2013 at 11:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DoggerelPundit  
Hi Slev,

While we are waiting for the more knowledgeable here to weigh in, allow me to point out that the string length measurement you want is that between the bridge and the nut, i.e. the length of the part of the string doing the vibrating. From what I have read here, that would be around 62 centimeters for Arabic ouds, and around 58 centimeters for Turkish ouds.

My guess is that your floating bridge oud is an Arabic one. If so, it's generally not a good idea to tune it up to EABEAD, especially if you are using heavier Arabic instrument strings. On a floating bridge, the extra tension might, over time, depress soundboard in the way you describe.



-Stephen





It came this way with a sunk in soundboard, really it isn't that bad. I will say I am very very disappointed in these a'addario strings frankly it's my fault. I'm just going to buy the LA Bella ou80 strings like it had when I bought it. At this point I cannot even play it due to the horrible sounds some of the new strings make....if I wanted a sitar I would buy one lol. Here let me get some photos rolling while the pros laph at my new beginner ideas :applause: BTW I went back to CFADGC which is better but still terrible.

slev - 6-30-2013 at 11:30 AM

Okay bridge to nut is: 24.8 inches. Keep in mind i can move the bridge up for down an inch or so.

Here's some photo's ( best i can do for now) :




see the slight dip?


bridge and butt of oud



neck action is almost perfect with where i have set the bridge


here's where the bridge is without a straight edge to show the dipping


All in all i really hope someone can have some pointers? i removed the strings to check all wood pieces glued inside and it is all strong with no loose or movable parts....(small tapping with a plastic screw driver confirmed this twice).

DoggerelPundit - 6-30-2013 at 01:10 PM

Ok. First, bridge placement is supposed to be exact, lest your fingered notes come out wrong—better action or not. Bridge placement is correct when the pitch of the middle chime note (the octave) matches exactly with the pitch of the fingered position just beneath the chime note point. Note: from what I read here, the folks who know these things use metric to measure everything. Your 24.8 inches works out to 62.99 centimeters. Better to measure in metric than convert. Oh yeah, once you know where the bridge should be, mind it doesn't creep toward the nut as you tighten the strings.

Second, if the soundboard came to you with a "sink," as you describe, it may be irrelevant to your problem. Especially if the problem was only the 6th string with the OU80s. Are the D'Addario J95 strings thinner than the OU80s? Either way, why not go back to what you know? Put the OU80s back on and see what happens. Note that LaBella makes an OU81 set, for Arabic ouds.

Once you have the bridge set properly, play any "problem" string open—striking lightly—and listen carefully to everything. Then, finger the same string 1/3rd up the neck from the nut, strike the string the same way and again listen carefully. Repeat this at halfway up the neck, and again where the neck joins the body. Then redo it all striking harder, as you would when actually playing. Aside from pitch, what are the differences and similarities in each note? When checking for buzzing on fingered notes, be sure there is a gap between the strings at the point where they run under your finger end.

Lastly, plastic screwdriver handles are harder than soundboards. Use the fleshy part of your middle finger.

Luck,

-Stephen

Brian Prunka - 6-30-2013 at 06:09 PM

The bridge should be located at 3x the distance of where the neck meets the body to the nut. So if the distance from fingerboard to the body is 21cm, the bridge should be located at 63cm, etc.

The OU80 set is made for Turkish tuning, but the wound strings work well for Arabic tuning. The plain strings are too light for Arabic tuning on most ouds, better gauges are .029-.031in for g and .024-.026in for c'.

Jack_Campin - 7-1-2013 at 08:16 AM

From the LaBella site:

"Labella Turkish Oud Strings EABead' Set OU80
This set is one of the most popular sets for Turkish ouds. It's also been used successfully on Arabic (60+cm scale) ouds, with CFAdgc' tuning."

Why CF? You'd expect the drop in pitch to be uniform across all courses, so they'd work at DGAdgc'.

slev - 7-1-2013 at 09:14 AM

Cf is hard to use. Ill stick with DG. Waiting for my strings to get here. I ordered 4 sets of ou80. In the mean time I drop tuned what I was using and the majority of sitar like sound has been eliminated. Even tho the daddario strings suck for dgadgc cfgcfb works sorta....

Brian Prunka - 7-1-2013 at 07:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jack_Campin  
From the LaBella site:

"Labella Turkish Oud Strings EABead' Set OU80
This set is one of the most popular sets for Turkish ouds. It's also been used successfully on Arabic (60+cm scale) ouds, with CFAdgc' tuning."

Why CF? You'd expect the drop in pitch to be uniform across all courses, so they'd work at DGAdgc'.


That's funny, the LaBella folks must have taken that from my website. The LaBella strings can be used for DGAdgc' as well, I put CFAdgc' since that's somewhat more popular and people ask about it frequently. I still advise using slightly heavier strings on the first course, and maybe the 2nd course, especially if the length is under 61cm.
Here's the full text as I wrote it:

" LaBella OU80 oud strings. This set is one of the most popular sets for Turkish ouds. It's also been used successfully on Arabic (60+cm scale) ouds, with CFAdgc' tuning. On shorter Arabic ouds (under 61cm), many people like to use slightly heavier nylon courses, around .024–.025 for c' and .029–.030 for g."



slev - 7-3-2013 at 08:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by Jack_Campin  
From the LaBella site:

"Labella Turkish Oud Strings EABead' Set OU80
This set is one of the most popular sets for Turkish ouds. It's also been used successfully on Arabic (60+cm scale) ouds, with CFAdgc' tuning."

Why CF? You'd expect the drop in pitch to be uniform across all courses, so they'd work at DGAdgc'.


That's funny, the LaBella folks must have taken that from my website. The LaBella strings can be used for DGAdgc' as well, I put CFAdgc' since that's somewhat more popular and people ask about it frequently. I still advise using slightly heavier strings on the first course, and maybe the 2nd course, especially if the length is under 61cm.
Here's the full text as I wrote it:

" LaBella OU80 oud strings. This set is one of the most popular sets for Turkish ouds. It's also been used successfully on Arabic (60+cm scale) ouds, with CFAdgc' tuning. On shorter Arabic ouds (under 61cm), many people like to use slightly heavier nylon courses, around .024–.025 for c' and .029–.030 for g."





Can I use EABEAD on my oud with these.ou80 strings ??? I really like eabead more than gdagdc

Brian Prunka - 7-4-2013 at 05:43 AM

I wouldn't use that tuning with that set, your scale length is much longer than Turkish and the tension will be very high. If you want to use that tuning, you should probably get a Turkish oud or a custom set.

Jody Stecher - 7-4-2013 at 06:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by slev  
[

Can I use EABEAD on my oud with these.ou80 strings ??? I really like eabead more than gdagdc



I was wondering why you prefer to tune a step higher with a long scale oud. It occurred to me that you may have heard ouds in "F tuning" and are looking for that sound. You might want to try the typical F tuning (with the appropriate set of strings of course): the high strings are tuned in fourths just like every other oud tuning but they are thinner strings tuned higher: dgcf. The bass strings may be tuned various ways but F, A is typical. So you'd have FAdgcf. It could be that the sound you are looking for is to be found in this tuning.

Another thing occurs to me. The floating bridge oud is a development of an Iraqi school of playing, and players of that school sometimes adhere to an old way of stringing the oud where the bass string is closest to the ground but the other strings are in the usual ascending order. If the slots on your bridge and nut have been cut for that string arrangement it might be that the strings are not fitting the slots properly and that is the origin of the annoying buzz. In the F tuning I mentioned above the order would be AA dd gg cc ff F.

gdagdc is not a viable tuning with any available set. Was this a typo for dgadgc?

slev - 7-4-2013 at 09:42 AM

Yes I typed it out wrong. It's DGAdgc. The reason why I like EABead is because that's what I tune my cumbus to, and it's easier to play variety over dgadgc which I feel is limited. I'm new to all this. BTW my ou80 strings are working well. I used Brian's calculations and where the bridge sits all the strings sound great. The ou80s came with double D large strings but I prefer single D. Yes the bridge seems to not like four of the strings which I am curious if I can buy another floating bridge ?????
BTW what does the capital letters mean ?

Jody Stecher - 7-4-2013 at 10:02 AM

Humans are ingenious and inventive and anything is possible but it might help to consider that cumbus and floating bridge oud were each designed to play a particular range of music and there is virtually no overlap between the two. Even when the repertoire coincides the styles and sonic preferences are different. If you are playing with others who have fixed pitch instruments with which your cumbus is compatible then I can see why the lower oud tuning is a problem. But if you are playing solo, just think D and when your oud "says" C, don't worry about it. :-)

where in california are you located? There may be someone near you who can fill and re-cut the slots on the nut and bridge. that might be easier than a new bridge. A luthier who can do this on guitar or mandolin can do it on an oud.


Quote: Originally posted by slev  
Yes I typed it out wrong. It's DGAdgc. The reason why I like EABead is because that's what I tune my cumbus to, and it's easier to play variety over dgadgc which I feel is limited. I'm new to all this. BTW my ou80 strings are working well. I used Brian's calculations and where the bridge sits all the strings sound great. The ou80s came with double D large strings but I prefer single D. Yes the bridge seems to not like four of the strings which I am curious if I can buy another floating bridge ?????

Jody Stecher - 7-4-2013 at 10:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by slev  

BTW what does the capital letters mean ?



caps for lower octave. lower case for higher octave.

slev - 7-4-2013 at 10:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by slev  

BTW what does the capital letters mean ?



caps for lower octave. lower case for higher octave.


Thanks for that. I will try the tuning in F later tonight when I get home.:applause:

Jody Stecher - 7-4-2013 at 10:38 AM

See My Message At Bottom!
Quote: Originally posted by slev  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by slev  

BTW what does the capital letters mean ?



caps for lower octave. lower case for higher octave.


Thanks for that. I will try the tuning in F later tonight when I get home.:applause:


I hope you see this post before you try that. With the LaBella set you have on the oud at present F tuning will cause all your strings to break ..if you are lucky. If unlucky your oud will be damaged. F tuning requires re-stringing.

slev - 7-4-2013 at 10:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
See My Message At Bottom!

Quote: Originally posted by slev  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by slev  

BTW what does the capital letters mean ?



caps for lower octave. lower case for higher octave.


Thanks for that. I will try the tuning in F later tonight when I get home.:applause:


I hope you see this post before you try that. With the LaBella set you have on the oud at present F tuning will cause all your strings to break ..if you are lucky. If unlucky your oud will be damaged. F tuning requires re-stringing.


OK I will find yet another string set to experiment differnt tuning.

Jody Stecher - 7-4-2013 at 11:23 AM

I am relieved to hear that. :-) best wishes to you.
Quote: Originally posted by slev  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
See My Message At Bottom!

Quote: Originally posted by slev  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by slev  

BTW what does the capital letters mean ?



caps for lower octave. lower case for higher octave.


Thanks for that. I will try the tuning in F later tonight when I get home.:applause:


I hope you see this post before you try that. With the LaBella set you have on the oud at present F tuning will cause all your strings to break ..if you are lucky. If unlucky your oud will be damaged. F tuning requires re-stringing.


OK I will find yet another string set to experiment differnt tuning.

Brian Prunka - 7-4-2013 at 11:32 AM

The LaBella OU80A set is for the high F tuning, I agree that it makes more sense to try that than the EABead' tuning, considering the type of oud you have.

Viken Najarian is near Anaheim, I believe, and is good at these kinds of small repairs; new nut, bridge, pegs, etc.

slev - 7-4-2013 at 11:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Humans are ingenious and inventive and anything is possible but it might help to consider that cumbus and floating bridge oud were each designed to play a particular range of music and there is virtually no overlap between the two. Even when the repertoire coincides the styles and sonic preferences are different. If you are playing with others who have fixed pitch instruments with which your cumbus is compatible then I can see why the lower oud tuning is a problem. But if you are playing solo, just think D and when your oud "says" C, don't worry about it. :-)

where in california are you located? There may be someone near you who can fill and re-cut the slots on the nut and bridge. that might be easier than a new bridge. A luthier who can do this on guitar or mandolin can do it on an oud.


Quote: Originally posted by slev  
Yes I typed it out wrong. It's DGAdgc. The reason why I like EABead is because that's what I tune my cumbus to, and it's easier to play variety over dgadgc which I feel is limited. I'm new to all this. BTW my ou80 strings are working well. I used Brian's calculations and where the bridge sits all the strings sound great. The ou80s came with double D large strings but I prefer single D. Yes the bridge seems to not like four of the strings which I am curious if I can buy another floating bridge ?????


Check the u2u.

slev - 7-13-2013 at 02:23 PM

Got my OU80A sets in today, restrung the oud and tried
FAdgcf unfortunately thar is a very very hard tune so I'm using EAbead. The wood on the oud was making aweful sounds when I got to GCF. Not good idea.