Mike's Oud Forums

who plays sarod?

Masel - 7-15-2013 at 01:34 PM

i am starting to learn (still can't choose between sarod and sitar though...), to those of you who play both sarod and oud, do the long nails required for the sarod interfere with your oud playing?

Brian Prunka - 7-15-2013 at 02:14 PM

I don't play Sarod, but having occasionally neglected to cut my fingernails, I will say that your oud better have an ebony fingerboard. This won't stop the wear, but it will slow it down considerably.

Masel - 7-15-2013 at 02:15 PM

it is ebony, i was more concerned about technique

Jody Stecher - 7-15-2013 at 03:39 PM

I play sarode. I began learning in 1968. There is no problem keeping the same left hand for oud and for sarode. It's true that some sarode "schools" (traditions) keep fairly long nails and some square them off as well. I was taught by Ali Akbar Khan and ZM Dagar. For that left hand technique fingernails are not kept very long. They have to be maintained and shaped and kept free from jaggedness and grooves but contact with the string and fingerboard is made with a combination of finger pad and the inside corner of the nail. The nail creates clarity: hard nail pressing hard string to hard fingerboard. "Meend" (micro-tonal sliding) is done with the nail. But the nails are kept short enough to always be out of the way for oud or any other string instrument. I don't finger the oud with the very tips of my fingers. I get better tone and more padded protection from pressure on the finger bones, just a little lower. Most violinists do play with the tips but Allauddin Khan played both violin and sarode and never seemed to have a problem. Ali Akbar Khan's disciple George Ruckert plays both sarode and violin as well. If it can be done on violin and can be more easily done on oud. Forum member Edward Powell has built (many versions of) a double fingerboard instrument that is a combination of oud and sarode and he seems to be able to keep his nails shaped well for sarode but still not getting in the way for oud.

Do you have a sarode? Do you know what style your prospective teacher plays?

Bodhi - 7-15-2013 at 03:42 PM

I think this could have more to do with the ends of your fingers. Let me explain myself... I have finger nails that come almost to the end of my finger-ends even when cut down absolutely. For me any growth interferes with Oud playing but I notice for some friends who's finger nails are set back behind the finger-end even though slightly grown that it is not a problem!
soooo...
I think that if you keep your finger nails at a reasonable length that sits just behind the finger end it will be possible to play sarod and oud without problems, saying that you will know for sure when you start! I would definately go with Sarod personally over Sitar... Sitar is rather limited in its tone comparitively, as lovely as it sounds.

Masel - 7-15-2013 at 09:59 PM

thank you friends. my teacher (only had one lesson) is from the amjad ali khan gharana he was his student for 14 years. if you would like to enlighten me as to the difference between the schools i would appreciate it.
i know there are different types of sarods and i would an ali akbar khan type becuase of the extra resonance of the jawari bridge, as far as i know that is the main difference (plus being tuned to C rather than B works better with other instruments too).

but i don't have a sarod, only one my teacher loaned me, i dont know if i can find a good one whre i live. is it common to buy them online? i would never buy an oud without seeing it so i don't know....

David Parfitt - 7-16-2013 at 04:58 AM

Hi Masel

I can't offer any advice on playing sarod, but some excellent (and perhaps not so well-known) players worth checking out are Tejendra Narayan Majumdar and Vasant Rai. If you haven't already heard them of course!

All the best

David :wavey:

Jody Stecher - 7-16-2013 at 06:17 AM

The question is simple but the answer is complicated. Briefly, here is some essential info. Amjad Ali Khan school requires longer nails. It's not impossible to play with Ali Akbar style nails but it is probably a mis-match and will not sound right. Amjad's style and his father Hafiz Ali Khan's style of music cannot be well played on an Ali Akbar Khan model sarod. The shape of the bowls and other design features result in very different sounds and response. An Ali Akbar model however can be tuned anywhere between A and C# and still sound good. I don't think it is possible to play oud with Amjad Alli Khan length nails because they need to be grown higher than the fingertip and then made square. WIth Ali Akbar style sarode you are safe for oud playing because the fingernail contact with the string is not at the tip but way down near where the nail meets the cuticle on the side away from the thumb. So unless you have flat fingertips and corresponding nails you are probably safe to play oud with Ali Akbar style sarode and Ali Akbar style nails.

Sarode is like oud in that each one is different. It is also like oud in that eBay Specials may not be what they claim to be.

I know of several older Hemen sarodes for sale. Send me a U2U if interested.
Quote: Originally posted by Masel  
thank you friends. my teacher (only had one lesson) is from the amjad ali khan gharana he was his student for 14 years. if you would like to enlighten me as to the difference between the schools i would appreciate it.
i know there are different types of sarods and i would an ali akbar khan type becuase of the extra resonance of the jawari bridge, as far as i know that is the main difference (plus being tuned to C rather than B works better with other instruments too).

but i don't have a sarod, only one my teacher loaned me, i dont know if i can find a good one whre i live. is it common to buy them online? i would never buy an oud without seeing it so i don't know....

Masel - 7-16-2013 at 10:25 AM

thank you for detailed answers though i'm still not sure i understand the difference between ali akbar khan and amjad ali khan's different styles, though i think i like ali akbar's style better, plus i would rather have shorter nails, plus his sarod sounds more resonant and nice to my liking but i've only heard recordings, not really compared the two different types.

does that mean i should look for a different teacher? i don't think i can find another where i live... there is a good sitar player, i know he plays in the style of [forgot the name] not ravi shakar, the one closer to vocal style. maybe that is a better choice? is it really so important?

Jody Stecher - 7-16-2013 at 10:57 AM

I think you should start with the teacher available to you. The differences between sitar schools (styles) is probably bigger than between sarod styles. The left hand of the schools of both instruments are different and so are the weight of the strings. But, as with sarod, technique is not the only difference. There is a difference in repertoire, musical form, and even the conception of each raga is different. The latter is no more different than for instance the difference in how a given maqam is played in Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, etc. It is a gap that can be bridged by a good musician with a sensitive ear.

The choice of teacher, style and school (and sitar vs sarod) should be made according to what appeals to you, what is available to you, and a third factor, call it chance, fate, luck, blessing, etc. Sitar is in my opinion a bigger commitment at the beginning. Holding it is painful. Your fingers on both hands will become permanently disfigured. Sarod has ergonomic challenges as well. If one is not tiny, there is a tendency to lean over. There is a third possibility: play raga music on the oud. The sustain of some ouds is no shorter than sarod. It can be done.

Quote: Originally posted by Masel  
thank you for detailed answers though i'm still not sure i understand the difference between ali akbar khan and amjad ali khan's different styles, though i think i like ali akbar's style better, plus i would rather have shorter nails, plus his sarod sounds more resonant and nice to my liking but i've only heard recordings, not really compared the two different types.

does that mean i should look for a different teacher? i don't think i can find another where i live... there is a good sitar player, i know he plays in the style of [forgot the name] not ravi shakar, the one closer to vocal style. maybe that is a better choice? is it really so important?

Masel - 7-16-2013 at 11:07 AM

ok that makes sense. i really am drawn to the sarod and i think it will be challanging but possible. i wlil definately go for it and so how i fell in a few months. since i started playing oud (8 years) it has been pretty much my only instrument. now i feel ready to explore another instrument which is not too different. i t hink they will compliment each other. my interest has always been learning the traditions seriously and deeply but then trying to forget them and find my own way.
i sent you a PM jody.

Jody Stecher - 7-16-2013 at 11:54 AM

yes the difference between sarod technique and oud technique are not as big as between either and sitar. The three highest playing strings on sarode are also tuned in fourths. Sitar is more like buzuq, that is to say more horizontal on one string than vertical over several.

I have sent a u2u response. Let me know if you need more info.
Quote: Originally posted by Masel  
ok that makes sense. i really am drawn to the sarod and i think it will be challanging but possible. i wlil definately go for it and so how i fell in a few months. since i started playing oud (8 years) it has been pretty much my only instrument. now i feel ready to explore another instrument which is not too different. i t hink they will compliment each other. my interest has always been learning the traditions seriously and deeply but then trying to forget them and find my own way.
i sent you a PM jody.

Edward Powell - 7-25-2013 at 02:35 AM

you could try oud and sarod in the same instrument :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uaezItGPu8

...or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2gOcczf7IM

Masel - 7-26-2013 at 03:21 PM

thanks, i have a few more questions... answers greatly appreciated. i've searched the forums and the net but could not really find many answers.

1) what is the difference between an ali akbar khan sarod to an amjad ali khan? i know the AAK has the resonator at the head and some jawari strings, but is that all? is the sound similar? is the neck the same size, and plays similarly? jody you described some difference but its not clear to me. i read somewhere that on an AAK style sarod it is harder to pick notes accurately is that true? is his "slower" playing in part a restriction of the instrument?

2) what is the difference between the different gharanas of sarod? my teacher (had two lessons) uses the index and first finger, he is a student of amjad ali khan. he keeps his nails quite long, longer than i think would be ok for me for playing the oud. is there a video or something that shows close up both the shape of nails and exactly how to place them on the string, according to each or both gharanas?

3) i found i have to keep my left hand fingers very "curled" (as opposed to straight, becuase relatively short nails), but this makes playing fast alankars very difficult because to reach the distance between two notes i must straighten the finger a little and the nail loses contact. how to deal with this?

thanks for patience

Jody Stecher - 7-26-2013 at 04:25 PM

Bearing in mind that there are more than 2 kinds of sarodes, the differences in the two types you mention are many. The bowl is different, the sound is different, the string gauge is different, the pitch is different, the neck, the fingerboard, the response: All is different. It is hard to play Amjad style on a Ali Akbar style sarode and vice versa. Amjad sarod *is* designed for accuracy at high speed For A Certain Type of Phrase. That doesn't mean there is no accuracy in Ali Akbar type sarods. The latter are designed for a certain kind of sound. I can explain one difference of many: a typical Ali Akbar fast speed phrase is likely to have many strokes on a single pitch played in rhythmic patterns. A typical Amjad phrase will have a different pitch for each stroke. It's the difference between bol tans and ekhara tans. Ask your teacher to explain the difference.

The slow part of Ali Akbar's music is enhanced by the sonic properties of his type of sarod.

Or imagine trying to play Sunbati's music on Hrant's oud. How about playing Necati Celik's music on Sunabati's oud? How would that work out? It's like that. These instruments are designed to do different things.

There are lots of close up videos of both players. Search youtube. The difference between the gharanas ("schools") is more than the difference of left hand technique. The compositional forms are different and especially the method of composition or improvising is different. Development of a melody takes different paths in the two schools. The phrasing is different. The concept of each and every raga is different. These things are heard and understood through listening. These two players are not of the same generation for one thing. The influences on them are different. They had different teachers and they both are innovative and made some changes.

I don't fully understand your third question.

Quote: Originally posted by Masel  
thanks, i have a few more questions... answers greatly appreciated. i've searched the forums and the net but could not really find many answers.

1) what is the difference between an ali akbar khan sarod to an amjad ali khan? i know the AAK has the resonator at the head and some jawari strings, but is that all? is the sound similar? is the neck the same size, and plays similarly? jody you described some difference but its not clear to me. i read somewhere that on an AAK style sarod it is harder to pick notes accurately is that true? is his "slower" playing in part a restriction of the instrument?

2) what is the difference between the different gharanas of sarod? my teacher (had two lessons) uses the index and first finger, he is a student of amjad ali khan. he keeps his nails quite long, longer than i think would be ok for me for playing the oud. is there a video or something that shows close up both the shape of nails and exactly how to place them on the string, according to each or both gharanas?

3) i found i have to keep my left hand fingers very "curled" (as opposed to straight, becuase relatively short nails), but this makes playing fast alankars very difficult because to reach the distance between two notes i must straighten the finger a little and the nail loses contact. how to deal with this?

thanks for patience

Jody Stecher - 7-26-2013 at 05:31 PM

Have a look here:

http://www.sarodia.com/history.php

especially watch the videos. This is neither ali akbar nor amjad style. It might answer some of your questions.

this next page is not unbiased but it sheds some light:

http://sarodonline.wordpress.com/sarod/

and don't overlook wikipedia. The following is biased in a different direction than the previous but some solid info can be found as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarod