Mike's Oud Forums

New oud

Lysander - 7-27-2013 at 06:02 AM

Hi all,

Just joined up because I was given this present by my father in law, who is Turkish. Now, I've been playing the guitar for many years and of course the oud is not the same, but I'm intrigued to get to know it.

Could someone please tell me what kind of oud this is? I'm presuming its Arabic so should be tuned to the standard CFADGC notation.



Also, this has been moved from Turkey to the UK. The UK is mostly a temperate climate but what should I do to ensure minimum damage to the instrument [or is this talk of dry vs humid climates overcautiousness?]

jdowning - 7-27-2013 at 10:43 AM

Nice looking oud Lysander.

Check the vibrating string length - front of nut to front of bridge. If it is 58.5 cm then it is a Turkish oud and should be set up in Turkish tuning to avoid risk of damage to the instrument. If it is around 61cm to 63 cm then it is Arabic.

I do not know what the climate in Turkey is compared to the UK. Most likely there is not much difference on average year round indoors. Try to maintain a Relative Humidity of around 50% to 65% in your residence and you should be OK. The greatest risk is moving an instrument built in a humid to a very dry environment - as I found the hard way when moving from the UK to Canada where RH in a heated home (without climate control) in the middle of winter can drop to 30% or less resulting in wood shrinkage and splitting. Higher humidity causes wood expansion with much lower potential risk of damage.

Do a forum search for more information on tunings/strings and advice on optimum conditions for storing an oud.

hamed - 7-27-2013 at 01:58 PM

HI there,
This looks more like a turkish oud than arabic. This would also make sense since your father in law is turkish and the oud was moved from Turkey. You can always tune a turkish oud to arab tuning since the arab tuning is generally 1 step below turkish tuning, but you don't want to tune an arabic oud to turkish tuning because the higher tension may damage the oud. either way tuning to arab tuning on this oud will be perfectly fine..

Jody Stecher - 7-27-2013 at 02:34 PM

Perhaps there is a label inside. If it is written in Arabic you have a clue right there.

If your pegs are neither stuck nor slipping and spinning wildly you are probably ok for humidity.

Alfaraby - 7-27-2013 at 02:53 PM

It seems more Arabian than Turkish. Turkish ouds are usually made almost in the same design. We're not accustomed to mosaic bindings in relatively new Turkish ouds. The bridge is more Egyptian than Turkish. The pickguard is of poor design that has been seen on Turkish ouds, not even on the 200$ "commercial" . Turkish are more pedant with their finish than their neighbors. The rosettes are wooden (fir, poplar wood or some plywood) with common Egyptian or Syrian roses. Even the arm-rest looks rough harsh Arabian kind of. The incomplete fingerboard does not fit in the Turkish info. in my brain. This ugly unneeded extension too. It just does not fit.

Moreover, assuming the big rosette hole is around 100 mm, then the relation between the hole to the full scale would gives us 615 mm +-, which is one of characteristic of the Arabian common oud, not the Turkish. Nevertheless, some 600 mm scales have been seen lately and more in use nowadays, trying to "compromise" between the popular 615 mm Arabic & the 585 mm Turkish common scale, whilst the older Arabian ouds are usually 615 mm.
Well, just a harsh hunch of this common but queer instrument.
Here's a bit brighter image after adjusting.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

hamed - 7-27-2013 at 04:17 PM

This oud looks like it was made in Izmir, Turkey.
1. the shadow of the pegbox shows a turkish pegbox design.
2. the soundboard looks to be of decent quality with no polish
3. Overall workmanship is too good for an arabic oud for the price range of $400-$600 in which i think this oud falls.

Only the label and size of the oud will tell, maybe i'm wrong.

Lysander - 7-28-2013 at 02:17 AM

Thanks for your responses everyone. I was confused as to the type of oud because my father in law also had another one which was smaller than this. Since that other one was smaller and would have shorter string length I assumed this was larger and Arabic.

Now I don't have a tape measure to hand but the strings are tuned C#F#BEAD which tells me it is Turkish. Also the fact that this came from the West of Turkey is a pretty big giveaway. Seeing as my father in law is Turkish I don't know why he would be playing/give me an Arabic oud.

Anyway, the fact that this is Turkish is good because I am particularly interested in Ottoman culture and its music, and this instrument should help me learn about the latter.

In the Winter here it can get pretty cold, guess I'll have to check that the temperature doesn't get too cold and check the humidity.

jdowning - 7-28-2013 at 05:25 AM

My understanding is that Turkish ouds are (or once were) made in three sizes - 'Girl/Woman' size, string length about 54 cm, 'Boy' size, string length about 57 cm and 'Man' size, string length 58.5 cm (I cannot remember the exact string lengths without checking further - except for the full size instrument). So your father in law may have one of the 'standard' shorter string length ouds.

Is there a makers label inside the bowl - viewed through the sound hole?

If it is confirmed that the oud is Turkish then it presumably will be designed for optimum performance with Turkish tuning - not Arabic.

jdowning - 7-28-2013 at 05:31 AM

Correction. On checking further, apparently there are four standard Turkish oud sizes - 'Girl', 54 cm, 'Woman', 55.5 cm, 'Boy' (or small man), 57 cm and 'Man', 58.5 cm.

Lysander - 7-28-2013 at 08:08 AM

Right, I have measured it, and the distance from the nut to the bridge is 58.5cm, which means that it is a Turkish oud.

Should I keep the tuning as C#F#BEAD [as it came], or EABEAD? Or should I experiment with both?

Jody Stecher - 7-28-2013 at 08:22 AM

A point of clarification: Many Arabic ouds have a scale length of 58.5 cm. It would be unusual to find an Turkish oud with a scale of 60 to 62 cm. So while long scale is one of several semi-reliable indicators of Arab origin, 58.5 scale is not a reliable indicator of Turkish origin. Except in the instance of forgeries of the work of famous makers, a very reliable indicator for non-collectiable serviceable ouds is the label. What does the label say? What made you suspect Arab origin in the first place?

Lysander - 7-28-2013 at 08:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
A point of clarification: Many Arabic ouds have a scale length of 58.5 cm. It would be unusual to find an Turkish oud with a scale of 60 to 62 cm. So while long scale is one of several semi-reliable indicators of Arab origin, 58.5 scale is not a reliable indicator of Turkish origin. Except in the instance of forgeries of the work of famous makers, a very reliable indicator for non-collectiable serviceable ouds is the label. What does the label say? What made you suspect Arab origin in the first place?


Only the size of the instrument made me suspect Arab origin. However, I have taken a look inside, needed very bright light to do so. I can't read the maker's name, but the location is definitely given as Fethiye.

jdowning - 7-28-2013 at 12:06 PM

To further confirm that the oud might be Turkish you can check typical Turkish oud dimensions and geometry here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=14104

Dincer Dalkilic is trained in the Turkish oud making tradition and confirms what the dimensions should be.

Of course, these days, many luthiers may be 'self taught' not having a formal traditional training so may be producing ouds that are their own, modern invention having no real historical relevance. Hence the 'odd ball' string lengths?

Alfaraby - 7-29-2013 at 03:05 AM

Just thinking: We should also note that there are fake Turkish ouds in the market, usually made in Syria or Egypt. There are some fake Sukkar's replica ouds in the market, & we may find Turkish replicas made by anonymous workshops in the Arab world. This is not slander. This is a fact, no matter how painful it is. The other way round is also true: there are fake Arabian ouds made in Turkey !
The so-called Turkish Ouds are in fact Arabian ouds with a 585 mm scale. Nothing Turkish except for the dimensions, whilst this is not the only characteristics of a Typical Turkish oud, as we all know & Vice versa. Therefore, I wouldn't count on measuring the scale in order to judge this oud, or any other.
Faruk has been trying to argue for the last decade that making an Arabian oud is not making a scale of 610/615 mm. It's the making of the oud that determines it's orientation. Right Master ?
This might be nonsense, once a label is revealed, or is it already ?

We'll wait & see !

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Lysander - 7-29-2013 at 03:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
It's the making of the oud that determines it's orientation. Right Master ?
This might be nonsense, once a label is revealed, or is it already ?

We'll wait & see !

Yours indeed
Alfaraby


Alfaraby, thanks for your words and guidance. The label declares the oud was made in Fethiye, south-west Turkey. The maker I cannot read, but the location is very clear.