Mike's Oud Forums

Plato banishes all modes save for Dorian and Phrygian

Lysander - 7-29-2013 at 02:53 AM

In his Republic Plato allowed only two modes. Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian and Aeolian were all 'banned'. Dorian was to be used in times of war, and Phrygian in times of peace and reflection. Here are the words.

We were saying, when we spoke of the subject-matter, that we had no need of lamentations and strains of sorrow?

True.

And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical, and can tell me.

The harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the full-toned or bass Lydian, and such like.

These then, I said, must be banished; even to women who have a character to maintain they are of no use, and much less to men. Certainly.

In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly unbecoming the character of our guardians.

Utterly unbecoming.

And which are the soft or drinking harmonies?

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian; they are termed 'relaxed.'

Well, and are these of any military use?

Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones which you have left.

I answered: Of the harmonies I know nothing, but I want to have one warlike, to sound the note or accent which a brave man utters in the hour of danger and stern resolve, or when his cause is failing, and he is going to wounds or death or is overtaken by some other evil, and at every such crisis meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a determination to endure; and another to be used by him in times of peace and freedom of action, when there is no pressure of necessity, and he is seeking to persuade God by prayer, or man by instruction and admonition, or on the other hand, when he is expressing his willingness to yield to persuasion or entreaty or admonition, and which represents him when by prudent conduct he has attained his end, not carried away by his success, but acting moderately and wisely under the circumstances, and acquiescing in the event. These two harmonies I ask you to leave; the strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and the strain of temperance; these, I say, leave.

And these, he replied, are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies of which I was just now speaking.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.4.iii.html

Now, this is quite a useful synopsis. More than anything it gives the qualities and resonances of the individual modes as far as their practical use and atmosphere go. If you were to employ only two modes which would they be?

Brian Prunka - 7-29-2013 at 05:47 AM

I don't think that the modes in Plato's time correspond to the ones we call by those names today.

Masel - 7-29-2013 at 08:39 AM

plus he was a fascist so bye bye useless war philosophies

urus - 7-29-2013 at 09:24 AM

:))
"The word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else..."
(George Orwell)

Lysander - 7-29-2013 at 11:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
I don't think that the modes in Plato's time correspond to the ones we call by those names today.


Indeed, very true. Do you know what would be their modern counterparts?

spyros mesogeia - 7-31-2013 at 04:54 AM

I Think that it will be wise to respect the cultures of the other members....
I am Greek and I demand to be respected.
If you want to see the correlation between the Ancient modes and the actual modes ,the closest way is the Byzantine music...
Dr Spyros Koliavasilis

Bodhi - 7-31-2013 at 08:31 AM

In response to your question "If you were to employ only two modes which would they be?"

Gushe Nahoft from dastgah nava
and
Hijaz

these two have always resonated well with me.

P.S. only fascists demand respect ;)
P.S.S that was a joke before you get your knickers in a twist.

Jono Oud N.Z - 7-31-2013 at 06:06 PM

Interesting topic.
This is later than Plato of course, but according to Ptolemy, the Greek modes are (relative pitch and descending):

1. Dorian = e, d, c, b, a, g, F, E

2. Phrygian = e, d, c#, b, a, g, F#, E

3. Lydian = e, d#, c#, b , a, g#, F#, E

4. Mixolydian = e, d, c, bb, a, g, F, E

5. Hypodorian = e, d, c, b, a, g, F#, E

6. Hypophrygian = e, d, c#, b, a, g#, F#, E

7. Hypolydian = e, d#, c#, b, a#, g#, F#, E

Grout, Donald Jay, A History of Western Music, (New York, Norton, 1960), p. 32.

I agree that Byzantine chant is a very important living connection also.

Brian Prunka - 7-31-2013 at 06:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  
Interesting topic.
This is later than Plato of course, but according to Ptolemy, the Greek modes are (relative pitch and descending):

1. Dorian = e, d, c, b, a, g, F, E

2. Phrygian = e, d, c#, b, a, g, F#, E

3. Lydian = e, d#, c#, b , a, g#, F#, E

4. Mixolydian = e, d, c, bb, a, g, F, E

5. Hypodorian = e, d, c, b, a, g, F#, E

6. Hypophrygian = e, d, c#, b, a, g#, F#, E

7. Hypolydian = e, d#, c#, b, a#, g#, F#, E

Grout, Donald Jay, A History of Western Music, (New York, Norton, 1960), p. 32.

I agree that Byzantine chant is a very important living connection also.


Interesting, so:

modern phrygian = old dorian
modern dorian = old phrygian
modern ionian = old lydian
modern locrian = old mixolydian

Are the "hypo" modes also like modern understanding, where the finalis is the middle (in this case, the tonic would be "b")?

Jono Oud N.Z - 7-31-2013 at 07:24 PM

Quote:

modern phrygian = old dorian modern dorian = old phrygian modern ionian = old lydian modern locrian = old mixolydian


Yes.
Just checking another source I have on the subject.
This confirms the information in the other book.
The modes can extend above and below the scale but the 'hypo' modes are otherwise no different than the others and bear little resemblance to the Medieval modes.

Sachs, Curt, A Short History of World Music, (London, Dobson, 1956), p. 31-33.


Concerning the Medieval Western modes:

The Hypodorian Medieval mode also has the third as the dominant whereas the Dorian has the fifth.
The Hypophrygian has the fourth as the dominant (like maqam Kurdi), the Phrygian has the sixth.
The Hypolydian has the third as dominant, the Lydian has the fifth.
And finally, the Hypomixolydian has the fourth as the dominant, the Mixolydian has the fifth.

The finalis in the 'hypo' modes is the same as the other modes although they start a fourth below the tonic.

Grout, Donald Jay, A History of Western Music, (New York, Norton, 1960), p. 58.

Lysander - 8-1-2013 at 03:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  

modern phrygian = old dorian
modern dorian = old phrygian


Thank you for confirming this, I thought I had gone mad switching these two over.

Surprising though, since this would mean Plato associated the sounds of the Phyrigian mode with war and bravery, whereas I'd think the Dorian would be more suitable for that.

Unless the translator really knew his onions and already made the switch.