Mike's Oud Forums

Turkish Tuning vs. Notation Confusion

DavidJE - 8-1-2013 at 04:22 AM

I'm a bit confused with the difference between Turkish tuning vs. notation and am hoping you guys can help clarify this in my mind.

My oud (Turkish) is tuned B,F#,B,E,A,D (concert pitch), so if I use an electronic tuner, those are the pitches that are shown. However, my teacher explained that these notes are called A,E,A,D,G,C. So, when I see a note on a staff that's in the second space up from the bottom of the staff (an "A"), I play my fourth string up, open. I call it an "A", but in concert pitch, it's a "B".

Looking at posts in this forum however, I've read that Turkish notation is a 4th up. The way it was explained to me, it seems to be a 2nd up. Am I missing something here? Or, is the way I was taught this "incorrect"?

In this thread, Brian said: "For Turkish tuning, standard Hijaz (Hicaz) would be E." However, my teacher, and Karl Signell's book "Makam Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music" list Hicaz as C#.

If any of you can help me make sense of this, it would be much appreciated!

Lysander - 8-1-2013 at 04:41 AM

Many of the standard maqamat start in D on Arabic ouds.

Since Turkish ouds are tuned a step higher they would start in E. Also, as someone else said in that thread earlier, Hijaz starts on the third open string, which would also be the E. At least that's my understanding. That thread you linked discusses playing hijaz in C# and the concensus seems to be there's nothing wrong with playing it in C#, just unusual.

My suggestion is that any Arabic maqam that has D as the tonic, play it in E for Turkish.

DavidJE - 8-1-2013 at 04:56 AM

Thanks Lysander, but that doesn't answer my questions.

It seems to me that many "standard" maqamat start in either G (Rast) or A (Dugah) on Turkish ouds and in Turkish notation. I don't recall seeing any/many starting on E. For the Hidjaz/Hicaz maqam, according to my teacher and the Turkish theory books I have, it starts on A (Dugah). I play it on my 4th open string, which I call "A", but is a B in concert pitch.

What I'm confused about is:

- the difference between concert pitch and what Turkish players refer to their notes as
- the issue of Turkish notation being a 4th up, but it seeming to only be a 2nd up from what I've been taught

Brian Prunka - 8-1-2013 at 06:38 AM

It depends on if you are reading Turkish sheet music or Arabic sheet music.

If you are reading Turkish sheet music, then you play down a fourth from where it is written (Rast is written G but you play D).

If you are reading Arabic sheet music, then you are up a second from the concert pitch (Rast is written C but you play D).

Dugah is the third open string; in turkish music this is written "A" but is normally tuned to "E".

No offense, but your teacher sounds very confused.


As simply as possible:

1. In Turkish/Arabic/Armenian/Greek maqam music, the note names are more or less the same: Rast, Dukah (Dugah), Kurd, Sikah (Segah), Buselik, Jiharkah (Chargah), Hijaz, Neva, Hisar, Huseyni, 'Ajam (Acem), etc.

2. The oud can be tuned various ways; commonly Arabic ouds are tuned so that Rast is concert C, while commonly Turkish ouds are tuned to concert D. This is not always the case, the most common variation is to tune the instruments down, so Arabic ouds are sometimes in Bb, and Turkish ouds are sometimes in C.

3. Sheet music written for Turkish performance writes Rast as G. Regardless of how your oud is tuned, when you see "G", that is the note Rast (or Kirdan, if you are in the upper octave). Sheet music written for Arabic performance writes Rast as C. Regardless of how your oud is tuned, when you see "C", that is the note Rast, etc.

4. Therefore, if your oud is tuned to typical Turkish (Rast = concert "D"), then:
a) you will read a fourth down, if you are reading Turkish sheet music
b) you will read a step up, if you are reading Arabic sheet music


I don't suggest calling the notes anything other than what they are, but rather learning to associate the written notes with the positions in both cases.

DavidJE - 8-1-2013 at 07:18 AM

Thanks Brian!

My teacher has his PhD in music therapy with a focus on Ottoman maqam music, is half Turkish, and has studied extensively in Turkey. So, it's possible I'm misrepresenting what he has said. However, I do know that when we play what is written as an "A" in sheet music we play, for example, the 4th string up, which we call an "A", but is a concert "B".

I will ask him about what you wrote, as it does seem to correspond to everything else I have read!

Jody Stecher - 8-1-2013 at 08:35 AM

There seems to be some confusion here between the makam called Hicaz (by any spelling), the jins called Hicaz, and the *pitch* called Hicaz (and its fingering on an oud).

If the first tone of the Hicaz makam is represented as A (which gives —in Non Turkish terms — a pitch of E on a Turkish-tuned oud) then the third tone, which is called Hicaz (leaving aside for this conversation the differences between Hicaz and its neighbor Nim Hicaz) will be represented as C sharp. That doesn't mean the makam or jins begins there.

Also there may be a possible second confusion between where the melodic path of a makam starts and what the first note of its jins (tetrachord) is.

When Hicaz makam is played "in D" , C "half sharp" may be the leading tone. That is possibly what is meant by Hicaz/Hijaz "starting" or "beginning" at C sharp (although it is played lower than that), if that was written or said by someone somewhere. Context may provide insight.

DavidJE - 8-1-2013 at 08:49 AM

Thank you Jody.

I understand the difference between the three...makam vs. jins vs. pitch name. But, I wasn't clear on what they were talking about in the referenced thread. Now, that is clear. :)

So, also according to what I was taught, the Hicaz makam starts with an "A", but the Hicaz tone is a "C#".

However, I've been playing that starting "A" as my open 4th string...which is a concert "B". I'm not sure why my teacher has me doing this, as it doesn't seem to be typical. But I have emailed him...I only see him every couple of weeks as he lives in another city.

If I understand you guys correctly, and what I've read in most books, that "A" should actually be played as a concert "E". Is that correct?

Jody Stecher - 8-1-2013 at 08:58 AM

you're welcome! My comments were addressed to Lysander in particular and to other readers who have been as confused as I have been, trying to make sense of all this. BTW, I have edited for accuracy (to the extent I'm able) the last part of my previous post.
Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
Thank you Jody.

I understand the difference between the three...makam vs. jins vs. pitch name. But, I wasn't clear on what they were talking about in the referenced thread. Now, that is clear. :)

So, also according to what I was taught, the Hicaz makam starts with an "A", but the Hicaz tone is a "C#".

However, I've been playing that starting "A" as my open 4th string...which is a concert "B". I'm not sure why my teacher has me doing this, as it doesn't seem to be typical. But I have emailed him...I only see him every couple of weeks as he lives in another city.

If I understand you guys correctly, and what I've read in most books, that "A" should actually be played as a concert "E". Is that correct?

Brian Prunka - 8-1-2013 at 11:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  


If I understand you guys correctly, and what I've read in most books, that "A" should actually be played as a concert "E". Is that correct?


In your tuning, yes. What it really means is the third open string, which in your case (and typical Turkish tuning) is concert "E".

DavidJE - 8-1-2013 at 11:56 AM

Quote:
In your tuning, yes. What it really means is the third open string, which in your case (and typical Turkish tuning) is concert "E".


Quote:
Dugah is the third open string; in turkish music this is written "A" but is normally tuned to "E".


Ok, so what I considered to be note names are actually names based on strings/fingering and not on the actual notes? So, Dugah is always the third open string no matter what the tuning is?

mavrothis - 8-1-2013 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Ok, so what I considered to be note names are actually names based on strings/fingering and not on the actual notes? So, Dugah is always the third open string no matter what the tuning is?


No. Often, the third open string is used for Dugah note, but not always. This is simply because of convenience, and because you have a nice range above and below to work with.

If you are playing hicaz (hijaz) makam, the tonic is Dugah. So if you are playing in the key of E, then Dugah is your lower E in the octave.

If you are playing hicaz in the key of D, then Dugah is your lower D in the octave, etc.

The most basic notes of hicaz in one octave are:

Dugah
Dik Kurdi
Nim Hicaz
Neva
Huseyni
Acem
Gerdaniye
Muhayyer

These note names shift up or down according to what key you are playing in. If you are playing in the key of F#, then again, Dugah note is the lower F# in the octave.

When reading Ottoman scores, I don't see A, B, C, D, etc, I see Tonic, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. I'm thinking about what makam I'm in, the intervals that occur within it, and where the melody is taking me at any given moment. Whether I'm in the key of E, D or B flat makes no real difference. The shape/intervals of the basic scale(s), and the seyir (melodic movement/development) are the most important things.

I hope this makes sense and is helpful.

Thanks,

Mavrothi

adamgood - 8-1-2013 at 08:33 PM

David,

Having read through all of the posts I believe here's what's going on:
1. Your teacher is Denis (please say hello from Adam!)
2. Denis' (and my) ud teacher is Necati Celik. We use his common tuning of B, F#, B, E, A D.
3. He's having you play from "Kız tuning", not surprising because Denis also plays Turkish ney and that's Denis' most common tuning for ney.
4. Kız tuning means if you see an "A" (the pitch Dugah) on the page, you play a "B" (open 4th string). So in this tuning if you play hicaz, you'll start on your open 4th string.

So this is fine, nothing is wrong here just a little confusing.

Typically ud players in Turkey will learn to play pieces from a 4th higher than where you are currently... this would make hicaz starting from the 3rd string (a concert E) and the tuning is referred to as Bolahenk.

Learn to play from both. In fact make it a point in your studies to go back and forth. Keep in mind that if you play with the other neyzens in Vienna you'll be using the Kız tuning pretty much exclusively...it's just where their instruments are set for.

So this brings up the point that in Turkey, great musicians learn to play makams and pieces from wherever necessary (based on where the vocalists prefer or which instruments are present). Some of the hand positions are really annoying and some are a gift. Your hand may change position but the locations on the paper will never change.

Mavrothis nails it when he writes that he doesn't see pitches (A, B, C#) but rather degree names (1, 2, 3 ... or... Dugah, Dik Kurdi, nim hicaz)

Good luck!

Adam

DavidJE - 8-1-2013 at 09:03 PM

Adam: Thank you! Yes, Denis is my teacher, and Kiz tuning explains it. I had that thought last night, and I think Denis may have told me at the beginning of our lessons that we were using Kiz tuning, but back then I had no idea what he meant, and simply forgot it. That seriously clarifies things for me. :)

Mavrothi: That was very, very helpful. My teacher's speaks a number of languages, but I think we may have a slight language barrier, as I don't perfectly speak any language that he perfectly speaks, and vice versa. It's also possible that I just haven't asked the right questions, or that he didn't realize there was some confusion there on my part. But anyway, thank you for that explanation.

Brian Prunka - 8-2-2013 at 05:51 AM

This is interesting, in my experience with Arabic music, one doesn't change the names just because you move the maqam to a new note.

But then again, Arabic music doesn't have the system of transpositions that Turkish music does. The Ney obviously is a transposing instrument, and the oud isn't. It would make sense that ney players consider the whole makam system transposable, but in Arabic music they (generally) consider each ney separately and they would read concert pitch. I had thought about mentioning how the ney transposes but thought it would just further confuse things and wasn't relevant.

I wonder if this has something to do with the relative importance of the ney and the oud to the two traditions.

Of course a language discrepancy is a likely culprit for confusion . . .

reminore - 8-2-2013 at 06:43 AM

david -

truly...make yourself an oversize photocopy of a nice chart with the turkish note names (actually i think there is a chart in signell's book). if you want you can even highlight the higher four sets of strings as a point of reference...(lower first):

huseyni asiran,
dugah
neva
gerdaniye

have it as wall decor close to where you play - and learn the turkish note names, which as mav and adam said earlier - are easily transposable to any pitch and free of the constraints of the western musical system. for me with no theory in western notation - this was the only way to move forward in the study of the makam system...

DavidJE - 8-2-2013 at 07:27 AM

Thanks Reminore. I guess the issue with that is that "Dugah", for example, can be the third open string (Bolahenk) or the fourth open string (Kiz). It can be a concert E or a concert B. So, you can't actually label a particular string with a particular Turkish note name, since those note names aren't necessarily attached to particular strings/fingering.

Based on what Mavrothi said, it seems the best way is to learn the Turkish note names with regard to particular maqamat, or with regard to their intervals, as they can be placed on different strings and start with different concert pitches/notes.

I had been thinking that Hidjaz always starts on the tonic "A"/Dugah. I guess it does by Turkish naming convention, but that "A" is pretty meaningless, as it can be a variety of actual concert pitches. So it seems what one really needs to learn are the intervals of each maqam "scale", aside from the progression, dominant tones, etc.

If I were to make a chart, it couldn't be "correct" for both Bolahenk and Kiz tuning. And that's another thing, IMO. Using the phrase Kiz TUNING is rather misleading. I feel it would be more accurate to call it Kiz PLAYING. Because, everyone is Turkish tuning something like C#,F#,B,E,A,D. What is different about Bolahenk and Kiz isn't the tuning, but the playing. If I understand this correctly, a person using Bolahenk tuning has their oud tuned exactly the same as someone with Kiz tuning. It's the playing that's different...Bolahenk plays a 5th up (A to E), and Kiz plays a 2nd up (A to B), right?

DavidJE - 8-2-2013 at 01:25 PM

Ok, I'm still confused here...with this:
Quote:
Typically ud players in Turkey will learn to play pieces from a 4th higher than where you are currently... this would make hicaz starting from the 3rd string (a concert E) and the tuning is referred to as Bolahenk.


So that would be a 5th up, right? A written "A" to a played "E".

But Brian writes:
Quote:
If you are reading Turkish sheet music, then you play down a fourth from where it is written (Rast is written G but you play D).


So is it a 4th down or a 5th up???

adamgood - 8-2-2013 at 01:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  


So that would be a 5th up, right? A written "A" to a played "E".

So is it a 4th down or a 5th up???


I meant from where "you" are meaning, you've been playing from concert B...4th up from concert B is E.

So just scratch everything and here's what I was trying to convey:

...typically Turkish ud players will first begin to learn from the position of Dugah being concert E.

Man it can be so confusing to discuss theory in written words! If any of us sat down in person we'd clear up so much in 2 minutes. Wanna Skype?

David thanks by the way for your email! I'll respond soon.

Adam

Brian Prunka - 8-2-2013 at 05:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
Ok, I'm still confused here...with this:

Quote:
Typically ud players in Turkey will learn to play pieces from a 4th higher than where you are currently... this would make hicaz starting from the 3rd string (a concert E) and the tuning is referred to as Bolahenk.


So that would be a 5th up, right? A written "A" to a played "E".

But Brian writes:
Quote:
If you are reading Turkish sheet music, then you play down a fourth from where it is written (Rast is written G but you play D).


So is it a 4th down or a 5th up???


Well . . . a 4th down and a 5th up being the same note name, it is not really relevant, especially considering that an oud is an octave below where written even when reading "concert pitch".

So in the Bolahenk tuning (which, I agree with you—"tuning" is a misleading term, it is really a transposition), you are actually play an octave and a fourth (an 11th) down from where it is written.

In Kiz tuning, you are playing an octave and a 7th (a 14th) lower than is written.

To move from Kiz (where you are) to Bolahenk, you would go up a 4th from where you are.

DavidJE - 8-2-2013 at 10:44 PM

Ok, thanks again guys. I'm pretty sure I've "got it" now.

I understand what you're saying, Brian, about ACTUALLY playing an 11th down (Bolahenk) or a 14th down (Kiz), when compared to "concert pitch".

However, it seems to me that the easier way to think about how you play what you see on a page, is to think of it as a a 5th up (Bolahenk) or a 2nd up (Kiz). It seems a lot easier to make that move, mentally...in real time...as it's a lot shorter of a step.

But, then again, if you're just placing "Dugah" where you place it, then you're just playing intervals...which makes the most sense in the end.

Oh...and Adam...Denis says hello. He had nice things to say about you. :)

David