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Choosing between two books

Lysander - 11-27-2013 at 03:32 AM

Now that I know I won't get hit by a customs charge [!] there are two books I am interested in though unsure which to get.

One is The Maqam Book by David Muellam, the other is Turkish Maqam Music Guide by Murat Aydemir. Both have very good reviews.

Now, I play Turkish oud, so would the one by Murat Aydemir be the better of the two to get hold of? I listen to many types oud music and at this stage am not the interested in playing a particular style.. so whichever would be better for improv and taqsim and maqam knowledge.

David Parfitt - 11-27-2013 at 03:53 AM

Hi Lysander

I would definitely recommend the Aydemir one if you play Turkish oud, but the Muallam one is excellent too for background info if you can afford both.

All the best

David

Jody Stecher - 11-27-2013 at 05:23 AM

The books are not equivalents for two kinds of music. The Turkish book is a reference work, apparently designed for use by an advanced student. The Arabic music book is an instructional manual designed to open the ears of a new student of Arabic music.

The Maqam Book takes a unique and very clever and effective approach of beginning by explaining *western* music from a maqam point of view. The western reader comes to understand familiar music from what has previously been an unfamiliar point of view: the point of view of an Arabic musician. From there, the reader is introduced to the main maqamat of Arabic music. The book is systematic. It starts simple and only after the reader has acquired new intellectual tools are more complex ideas introduced.

The Aydemir book has good quality information but the reader is thrown in the deep end of the pool immediately and left to sink or learn to swim. Concepts are explained in terms that have not yet been explained. This book is an excellent reference and resource for those who already have a firm grip on the practice and vocabulary of Ottoman/ Turkish music. In my opinion it has not been written with a good understanding of what it is like to be a beginner. All the same I would buy this book if only for the gorgeous recording that comes with it and for the excellent repertoire (the book includes many transcriptions of good repertoire). A better intro to Turkish makam might be the Karl Signel book. It is rather dry but it is presented in a way that the reader does not put the book down after two minutes and ask "what can this possibly mean"? and that certainly happens to any novice using the Aydemir book.

I would recommend both books (and both the CDs that accompany them) and the Karl Signell book as well. Consider the Aydemir book as a reference work and the Muallem book as a tutor. The Signell book is somewhere between.

Lysander - 11-27-2013 at 05:58 AM

Thank you David, as always, and Jody, your post above is excellent. I took a look at the Signell book preview over Amazon and 'dry' is a good word for how some of it came across. Now I appreciate that the preview is not a good representation of the book as a whole at all but it gave me some idea of the 'feel' of the work.

Taking all this into consideration I will go with the Maqam Book. I think at this stage of learning it is still very important to approach, and not underestimate, seeing these things from a Western perspective and the simplicity of such. I so far have enjoyed Powell's Arabic Musical Scales and have been using it as a sole resource since leaning maqamat over the last few months. I can by no means play all the maqamat in the book but I think now is the time to look at another publication and gain a slightly progressed perspective to build on what I already know. I can then go onto the other publications next year.

Jody Stecher - 11-27-2013 at 09:19 AM

A few points of clarification. The Muallem book does not explain maqam music from a western perspective. Instead it provides entry into the world of maqam by explaining western music from a Maqam perspective. It assumes, almost always correctly that the reader is already familiar with some form of western music. But Arabic music is described entirely from a middle eastern perspective in this book, whose great strength is that it provides sufficient grounding in this perspective in advance of describing the music itself.

Because the fundamental unit of Arabic music is the jins (usually a tetrachord), not the scale, I am skeptical of a book that claims to teach "Arabic scales". It seems to be the equivalent of advertising Alaskan mangoes.

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander

Thank you David, as always, and Jody, your post above is excellent. I took a look at the Signell book preview over Amazon and 'dry' is a good word for how some of it came across. Now I appreciate that the preview is not a good representation of the book as a whole at all but it gave me some idea of the 'feel' of the work.

Taking all this into consideration I will go with the Maqam Book. I think at this stage of learning it is still very important to approach, and not underestimate, seeing these things from a Western perspective and the simplicity of such. I so far have enjoyed Powell's Arabic Musical Scales and have been using it as a sole resource since leaning maqamat over the last few months. I can by no means play all the maqamat in the book but I think now is the time to look at another publication and gain a slightly progressed perspective to build on what I already know. I can then go onto the other publications next year.

mavrothis - 12-5-2013 at 09:46 AM

Hi,

An inexpensive alternative or addition would be my book through Mel Bay: School of Oud

It has some oud basics, but is overall an introduction to makam study from the Ottoman perspective using Rast, Mahur and Nikriz. I include well-established pieces as well as original etudes highlighting the main characteristics of each of these three makams.

Thanks,

mavrothi

Jody Stecher - 12-5-2013 at 12:31 PM

And it also has a transcription of Cemil Bey's Longa (or Sirto) Nikriz that adheres closely to the original, and skips the errors I've seen in other transcriptions. The repertoire is good and the print is large and clear. Very easy to use. The repertoire is well chosen and presents a variety of rhythms and musical forms. It also has the virtue of being easily available and affordable.

Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis

Hi,

An inexpensive alternative or addition would be my book through Mel Bay: School of Oud

It has some oud basics, but is overall an introduction to makam study from the Ottoman perspective using Rast, Mahur and Nikriz. I include well-established pieces as well as original etudes highlighting the main characteristics of each of these three makams.

Thanks,

mavrothi

mavrothis - 12-5-2013 at 01:13 PM

Thanks Jody!

hartun - 12-17-2013 at 06:52 PM

hey guys I was looking at this thread because i was going to ask what you thought about Karl Signells book but I see you have discussed it. I had been suggested by an older Armenian musician to get the Signell book. I think I will get Mavrothis' book too because I'm sure he has a different perhaps more understandable approach than a German academic...

I play oud and clarinet and actually it was a clarinet player who told me about the Signell book.

harry

mavrothis - 12-17-2013 at 07:27 PM

Hi,

Karl Signell's book is excellent (I'm rereading it right now actually - it's nice to come back to every so often, especially if you are not fluent in Turkish).

My approach is very firmly based in his explanations (I'm pretty sure he's American by the way). My book differs in that it is simpler and focuses on three makam-s with a lot of etudes and established pieces to reinforce the feel and movement of each of them.

Probably once you feel comfortable using my book as a makam introduction, you can move on to Signell's book and Aydemir's as well for more detailed analysis and background information.

Thank you!

Mavrothi

Jody Stecher - 12-17-2013 at 07:33 PM

Karl Signell is a *musician*. I believe he is American. The book "Makam" was written long ago as a dissertation so it necessarily uses academic language. The book is very understandable. It is also orderly. Mavrothi's book is oud-specific and is not comprehensive and not intended to be. It's a hands-on approach to getting familiar with makam via oud by doing it. The Signell book is about how to understand the music as a whole. It is descriptive rather than prescriptive.

Quote: Originally posted by hartun

hey guys I was looking at this thread because i was going to ask what you thought about Karl Signells book but I see you have discussed it. I had been suggested by an older Armenian musician to get the Signell book. I think I will get Mavrothis' book too because I'm sure he has a different perhaps more understandable approach than a German academic...

I play oud and clarinet and actually it was a clarinet player who told me about the Signell book.

harry

Lysander - 12-18-2013 at 01:20 AM

Hi mavrothis, I have asked for your book for Xmas, I hope I get it! I think it will be a very positive addition to my growing oud library. I will get the Signell book soon enough.

I am interested to know about your choice of makamlar. Why did you choose Rast, Mahur and Nikriz [one of my favourites] to address?

mavrothis - 12-21-2013 at 05:29 PM

Hi Lysander,

Just saw your post!

Rast, Mahur and Nikriz are very closely related to each other, and so studying them more or less together offers a lot of support for each. There is also a lot of good, older repertoire to reference for them - you can go well beyond the included repertoire in the book for even deeper study and enjoyment of these makam-s.

Also, each of these makam-s is well represented in regional folk and urban music, so they're not just for 'classical' playing.

I hope you like the book. I was constrained as far as how long it could be, so I decided to focus on makam practice as opposed to basic oud technique, which other books have covered in many languages.

You will really appreciate Signell's book once you get it too. It's a great reference, and until rereading it recently, I had forgotten how much my own understanding and explanations are rooted in his work, which was published before I was born!

Take care!

mavrothi

Lysander - 12-23-2013 at 01:42 AM

mavrothi, I have your book now! Already I am enjoying it. I have started with the Nirkiz section and completed the first etude yesterday. Interesting 7/8 rhythm! Is it styled in an Ottoman way? I seem to remember those ottomans having unusual rhythmic style. I will most likely record one of the Nikriz pieces for my uni application.

Now, you will probably say I should have started with Rast, but I relate more to the minor maqamat, they are 'in me' more. For theory reasons I maybe should have started with Rast, but I will get on to that.

mavrothis - 12-23-2013 at 07:55 AM

Hi Lysander,

I'm very glad you are enjoying the book, thank you for letting me know. The 7 rhythms are very common throughout the Balkans and the Near East, usually organized 2 2 3 or 3 2 2.

It really doesn't matter where you start with makam study, as long as you take your time to understand how each makam you work on behaves, and also that each makam has a connection to many others.

Enjoy the holidays!

Sincerely,

mavrothi

Lysander - 12-23-2013 at 10:48 AM

Thanks, mavrothis. Here is a short clip of the first Nikriz Etude. It could use some finesse, but that will come. I am used to playing taksims over composed pieces, and I know I should definitely play the latter much much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naMxIAtIwYE

hartun - 1-16-2014 at 09:04 AM

Hi if anyone is still reading this, hello Mavrothis, I got your book and Signell's for Christmas. I read about half of Signells and I looked through yours but I couldn't get into it because I'm horrible at upstrokes...and certainly I dont go down-up-down I tried and it was rather difficult for me. Currently my practice of upstrokes is to stick them in whenever I feel like I can. And reading music - forget it. I'm firmly in the Armenian tradition of playing by ear, haha. Im kind of joking though I can read music if necessary. Also Mavrothis - I had ordered your book off of Amazon and it didn't come with a CD...isn't there supposed to be a CD with this???

Maybe I need to step back a moment and work on my picking before I worry about makams.

Also, what do you guys know about this website: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/makamlar.html

It seems to have a lot of makams but not really the seyir...or does it? What do you guys think of that page?

When I say "all the major makams" I don't mean like 40 of them. I mean the basics like Rast, Ussak, Nihavent, Hijaz, Kurdi, Hijazkar, Huseyni, Neva...my list is based on makams that ive seen listed on common songs.

Jody Stecher - 1-16-2014 at 10:11 AM

Harry,
1) if you have trouble with upstrokes there may be a problem with your downstroke. Are you really picking downward or is there a movement in your down stroke that moves away from your body? If you do that then of course an upstroke is difficult because there is no string above your plectrum, just air. Consider this: when you play two downstrokes one after the other on the same string or from a higher string to a lower string you must lift your hand and/or wrist to get up above the string you are going to play on the second stroke. So you are already making an upstroke. Contact the string you wish to play during this necessary movement and you have the beginning of developing a good upstroke.

2) the point of the etudes in any book is not to see how you measure up and not to find yourself wanting or to congratulate yourself on doing well. The point is to develop skills you do not yet have. That's why the down and up symbols are there. If you do the exercises and etudes *slowly* (at first) you will get progressively less horrible at up strokes.

Quote: Originally posted by hartun

Hi if anyone is still reading this, hello Mavrothis, I got your book and Signell's for Christmas. I read about half of Signells and I looked through yours but I couldn't get into it because I'm horrible at upstrokes...and certainly I dont go down-up-down I tried and it was rather difficult for me. Currently my practice of upstrokes is to stick them in whenever I feel like I can. And reading music - forget it. I'm firmly in the Armenian tradition of playing by ear, haha. Im kind of joking though I can read music if necessary. Also Mavrothis - I had ordered your book off of Amazon and it didn't come with a CD...isn't there supposed to be a CD with this???

Maybe I need to step back a moment and work on my picking before I worry about makams.

Also, what do you guys know about this website: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/makamlar.html

It seems to have a lot of makams but not really the seyir...or does it? What do you guys think of that page?

When I say "all the major makams" I don't mean like 40 of them. I mean the basics like Rast, Ussak, Nihavent, Hijaz, Kurdi, Hijazkar, Huseyni, Neva...my list is based on makams that ive seen listed on common songs.

mavrothis - 1-16-2014 at 10:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hartun

Hi Hartun,

Thanks for reaching out. First of all, the audio for the Mel Bay book is a download, whose link is found inside the book cover: Mel Bay Audio. Let me know if you have a problem downloading the files.

Since it seems you want to progress with your playing ability as well as your understanding of makams, you should realize that saying you couldn't get into something b/c it seemed difficult upon the first attempt is not going to help you! We have all been there with those emotions of course, but I hope you don't let the first taste of a challenge turn you back!

Everything that has to do with technique boils down to patient practice and muscle memory, which then evolves into thoughtful implementation as you master the techniques you've been practicing.

It doesn't matter who you are, how old you are, what you ate for breakfast, or if you are considered a beginner or a prodigy; technique is all about time invested in practicing technique.

In general, when playing on one string, play: down-up-down-up

In general, when playing across the strings, play down-up-down on the same string, changing to a down stroke each time you switch strings.

Down strokes are almost always rest strokes, meaning you follow through to rest on the next string below. Up strokes are always free strokes, meaning you do not touch the above string (except in rare multiple string/chord situations).

Practice various scales (slowly & carefully) in multiple octaves, using varying finger positions with the above suggested picking methods, and you will soon see great results in your playing and ability to play more challenging melodic lines.

Regarding makam study, the best comprehensive guide in English is by Murat Aydemir, though I'm afraid it is hard to come by (hopefully that will change soon).

The oud eclipse site does list the seyir for each makam as far as I know, and I also saw some video examples, but did not have time to listen closely.

Honestly Hartun, it sounds to me you need a teacher to help you, just like most of us have had. I have been playing oud for more than half of my life, and have had many teachers along the way. Would you consider scheduling a few sessions with me over Skype or FaceTime? I think it would benefit you a great deal.

All the best with your practice, and feel free to email me about lessons.

Take care,

mavrothi

David Parfitt - 1-16-2014 at 10:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hartun

Also, what do you guys know about this website: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/makamlar.html

It seems to have a lot of makams but not really the seyir...or does it? What do you guys think of that page?

Hi Harry

That website is utter crap, so don't believe a word you read on there!

Seriously though, the site is only meant as a source of very basic information, and I don't profess to know all of this stuff myself. When I set it up over 10 years ago now there was virtually nothing in English available on the oud and the music played on it, so I set about translating what I could find from books bought on the internet and on holidays to Turkey and Egypt. That way I hoped to absorb some of this info myself and have it stored somewhere accessible in English, plus get in touch with like-minded people around the world. In that sense it has worked pretty well.

For more in depth knowledge I would go with the advice of people like Mav who are intimately acquainted with Turkish-style oud. Try to get hold of the Aydemir makam book and also the "Ud Metodu" of Mutlu Torun. If you can read Turkish, then there is an excellent encyclopaedic reference book on Turkish music theory called "Türk Musikisi Nazariyatı ve Usulleri" by İsmail Hakkı Özkan, which will tell you more than you ever need to know.

Good luck!

David

hartun - 1-21-2014 at 10:31 PM

Hi everyone thank you for the input. Jody yeah I do move away from the oud. I dont know how this started it just came naturally and I have been playing that way for 2 years. My picking resembles a bird pecking at something....I mean, I don't do that on purpose but after reading the comments I played a little and watched how my hand and pick moved and I noticed that. Mavrothi I certainly don't have "rest strokes" I didn't know it was supposed to be like that until I read your book. Well...it may be too difficult to undo all this muscle memory. Mav I will contact you about the lessons...
Thank you every one for all your input.