Mike's Oud Forums

cultural? disturbance

charlie oud - 1-14-2014 at 04:24 AM

Dear Oudists
I have struggled to keep my interest in playing the oud and have been wondering why?. Sometimes I feel a kind of interference, a strange feeling like some inner protest about the never ending state of affairs in those nations where the music and it's style comes from. It's not so much religious i.e. the bitterness between Christianity and Islam. It's more the behaviours, the bitter hatred of Westerners, all the mindless killing, the suffering. May be it's because I am a Western citizen? it's not like this in the UK or the USA. I just don't know what is going on in me. But somehow I feel this unhappiness, the fighting, the bombs, the dying children. I have been a musician for nearly 40 years and this is the first time my musical life has encountered this discomfort with an instrument and I am actually a little embarrassed to be posting these thoughts. My heart informs me that music must never be affected by such issues, that it is universal, crosses all cultural divides. So why should I be feeling this? Any thoughts?

RobMacKillop - 1-14-2014 at 04:41 AM

Thanks for being brave enough to share your thoughts. I'm new to this forum, so will let more experienced members answer first. But I know whereof you speak. I was studying oud in Morocco when 9/11 happened, which seemed to destroy all I was trying to achieve - learn, enthuse and share. I felt sick, and couldn't play for a long time.

charlie oud - 1-14-2014 at 05:12 AM

Cheers Rob, Thank you, likewise I appreciate your reply and how awful you must have felt at that time, it resonates in some ways with my own struggle.

Lysander - 1-14-2014 at 07:19 AM

Firstly, have you ever been to the Middle East? I have been to Turkey a couple of times [though not all of Turkey is in the ME, parts of it are] and I've visited the rural country areas as well as Istanbul and the larger cities.

Do not believe all the rubbish you see on the news. Yes, there is some terrible stuff that goes on in the ME, but also most of the people there are proud, very friendly, far more generous and down-to-Earth than a lot of Westeners. They have a rich, beautiful culture and heritage, and stunning architecture, food and hospitality that we could learn a lot from in the UK.

A lot of people who haven't been to that area of the world have a very bad impression of it. It's a terrible shame since my experience so far has been highly positive. I would just use the most applicable phrase in this situation, "don't let your mind stop you from having a good time" and enjoy your playing. Also, consider visiting.


Brian Prunka - 1-14-2014 at 07:46 AM

Maybe it would help to realize that the fanatics would be more than delighted to have created enough divisiveness to have convinced you to quit the oud.

The music is not just from Muslim Arabs, but Christian, Druze and Jewish Arabs also.

It makes about as much sense as hostility toward Bach because of the Nazis, or to BB King because of GW Bush.

charlie oud - 1-14-2014 at 08:27 AM

Thank you for your comments and thoughts. Please keep them coming, they're helpful. I've no mind to 'quit the oud' based on irrational thinking so am looking to overcome this strange phase which I seem to be going through. I have some fine oud playing friends who are from the regions and of various faiths so don't feel it's personal in anyway and am not trying to defend the way I feel.

SamirCanada - 1-14-2014 at 10:14 AM

Stay away from the news man. Thats the only way to forget about it. As we all know anyways there is seldom good news in the paper anyways. The feeling you have is natural, you are a musician and a human so obviously you can feel in your heart what pain some people are going through.

Also, everyone should know about what is happening that not all is a clear as it seems and there are many international plots happening. Everyone has their conspiracy theory and bleives their own agenda. Its unfortunate but as mentioned above the people of this region are strong minded and proud of their values and history, this is also their biggest weakness because it is why they are easily manipulated against eachother. I am not taking sides, actualy I am not even refering to a specific conflict, but anyways my rant ends here...

Really just turn off the tv and listen to music and play your oud with conviction that you are playing when others there may have lost their oud or may even no longer be allowed or able to play.

MatthewW - 1-14-2014 at 10:52 AM

Hello Charlie- As Rob says, you are brave to open your heart and share your deepest feelings with us in the forum; as has been said before there seems to be a universal bond which links all oud players together no matter what religion,race or creed we belong to or not as the case may be.

As a musician, I have always kept the love of music and the business of politics separate. The history of the world as far back as you can go has been marked by wars, atrocities, famines, injustices -you name it man, there is nothing new under the sun. Perhaps you are going through an extra sensitive moment during this full moon (the 15th) phase..
I play the oud because I need to play, I don't play it because of any race, creed or cultural background, to me the oud is beyond all of that- it is a beautiful and magical instrument which soothes the human heart and spirit, it puts me in touch with my own deepest feelings, and as Beethoven said, music is a higher revelation than philosophy. To me the oud ( or any instrument)does not really care who you are or where you come from or what religion you may profess, it's business is creating beautiful music, creating peace and spreading love. This is not to say that we don't all have personal opinions or views on this or that, but views and opinions change, music is the universal constant and peace,love and harmony the way.

Your head may be filling you with many thoughts, as Samir says stay away from the friggin news, we are constantly bombarded with negativity day after day after day by the media.
Music is the tonic, we need to play to help heal and soothe our spirit and others as well, to get back in tune with our higher feelings and thoughts.
OK, enough of my preaching bro,
Now go pick up your oud and play your heart's song and let the world turn. :airguitar:

ps - why is this in the 'buy and sell ouds section' of the forum ? ..... :rolleyes:

Brian Prunka - 1-14-2014 at 10:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
Stay away from the news man.
...
Really just turn off the tv and listen to music and play your oud with conviction that you are playing when others there may have lost their oud or may even no longer be allowed or able to play.


Well said, Samir.

Alfaraby - 1-14-2014 at 02:48 PM

I'm shocked by your open hearted frankness. However:
Is it because of terrorists who hate mankind and probably themselves, you come to hate the oud ?
Is it because of some hooligans & mob in games, we come to hate football ?
What an awful feeling this can be.

Charlie dear !
Oriental music &/or oud are not a monopoly of Islam or of Arab countries or Arabs. They were never so and shall never be. The oudland includes Greece and Armenia for instance, where there's no Islam or "mindless killing", as much as I know. On the other hand, Islam is not responsible for such cruelty and crimes, though some are taking place in its name and sake. Islam means, among other meanings, peace. "A Muslim is this who saved his tongue and hands from the others", the Hadith provides. It's not a religious issue in the first place I agree, but one should think open-minded and separate biased prejudiced news from reality. We have been living here for more than a half of a century and witnessed less killing than in one case of some lunatic opening fire on schoolchildren in some wild west in the middle of nowhere.

While playing your oud remember : Manol and all the other Greek great makers, Bedrossian, Karibyan and all the other Armenian great makers (tens of them), Nahhat clan and all the other Arab great makers: Michel Khawwam, Georgy Hayek, Antoine Abrass, Antoine Yorgaky, Jamil Qandalaft, Jamil George, Fadi Matta, Albert Mansour, Amin Haddad, Kamil Mowais, Hatem Jubran, Salim Elias Qaddourah, Maurice Shehata & tens more ... (even "yours indeed" :) ). Think of the great players (just a miscellaneous list) Jamil & Munir Basheer (Iraq), George Meshel (Egypt), Simon Shaheen, Taiseer Elias, Kamil Shajrawi, Nizar Rohana (The Holy Land), Wadee'a Alsafi, Marcel Khalifeh, Cherbel Rohana (Lebanon), Sakher Hattar, Elia Khoury (Jordan) and think: What's the common thing between them all ?
Yes ! You're right. They all share your passion for ouds and never thought of it as a symbol of hatred, but a peace-making living thing.

Keep playing more and more ... and think, dear, think and share your thought with us.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

RobMacKillop - 1-14-2014 at 03:54 PM

Where does Charlie say he hates the oud?

SamirCanada - 1-14-2014 at 04:29 PM

Hi Rob, please bear in mind English is not everyone's first language here, leave some room open for interpretation.

I am sure AlFaraby's response was meant more like now you blame your oud and feel guilty for playing it while so much despair is taking place.

Anyhow, I am taking his defence because I found the response overall very well articulated.

yours truly.

epokhe - 1-14-2014 at 06:46 PM

To second what others have said:

Try to remember that for every gun-toting weirdo that we see on the news, there are literally thousands of other people just trying to live their lives, going to work and caring for their children, spending time with their friends and family, learning and teaching and upholding traditions, not to mention building ouds and playing music. And the number of battles fought, even in the course of terrible wars that continue for decades, is still far exceeded by the number of parties held, the weddings and birthdays celebrated, the smiles and handshakes and thoughtful gestures shared between real, flesh-and-blood people who aren't so different from you. People we never get to see on the western news because, unfortunately, they wouldn't attract nearly as big an audience as the gun-toting weirdos.

My only quibble with the previous comments is their recommendation to stop watching the news: instead, I would suggest that you find different *sources* for your news, maybe mixing-and-matching reports from various parts of the world for a more accurate perspective. Far as I can tell, the solution isn't to become less informed...it's to become *better* informed.

In any case: play the oud, Charlie!

Marcus - 1-14-2014 at 10:35 PM

Hi Charly,:wavey:

keep in mind what Samir says: stay away from the news- bad news create bad feelings.
We all love the oud because of its mellow,peaceful and sometimes sad sound and we love music because....we love music!!
We do have no other choice than KEEP PLAYING.
When we reach only one heard with our music, we have allready made the world a little better!!

As we are artists and pretty "soft inside",I`m sure we all get a kind of heardbreak from the crue things thats going on in the world from time to time. This is one of the feelings that enable us to show our soul while we playing music.


Unfortenately my english is not good enough to pack my thoughts in words, so I use some words of The Eagles:

"Dont let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy"

Cheers + all the best,

Marcus

majnuunNavid - 1-14-2014 at 10:54 PM

Charlie,

There have been many times when I have given up the instrument of my choice and gone to other things...
many times I have hated western music,
many times I have given up the music of my country...
but I now find in them their own place
after being sick they both healed me again and again

Sometimes a certain melody it will make you feel sick, Force yourself to listen to it, play that melody more, listen to it more,
it will cause a change in your body and your soul,

that is my experience...

there were certain Persian musicians like Hasan Nahid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O-l7TpYxr4) who at one time gave up music entirely and started working at a bread making factory instead of pursuing his music career. If it was not for other musicians who brought him out of his slumber, we wouldn't be able to appreciate his art today. Was it anything but the burden on his soul that made him feel thus?!
Such are we as musicians...

If you need to let go of the Oud for a while, it will come back, but you will regret those days you let it go. Sometimes one needs to take a break.

Everything in this modern day takes its toll, whether it be the equal temperament music we hear everywhere, or the media and their exaggerations. I don't know what's right, just follow your heart. If your heart needs a break, take one.

charlie oud - 1-15-2014 at 03:16 AM

I can't thank you all enough for taking the time to share your thoughts with me, your felt responses and for expressing your love of the oud and of music. I am really quite moved by reading through these responses.
I can already feel my concerns receeding, like a weight being lifted off my shoulders. The oud has brought me so much pleasure and as I pass through this period I can feel some of my doubts slipping away now that you guys have helped. The oud is indeed an evocative instrument, very expressive in it's tones and strangely powerful. Thanks again.

rojaros - 1-15-2014 at 07:44 AM

Playing oud is one form of peace making, because that is not what any fanatic would do - it softens the heart!

DavidJE - 1-15-2014 at 08:41 AM

Sorry if this comes across as a little too philosophical, but...

I think it's important to remember that everything we see or experience is limited by our own narrow point of view, combined with the particular place and time when we see/experience. 100 people can see the same thing and have 100 different feelings, based on their particular points of view, past experiences, culture, etc.

And when something does happen, there are multiple causes. And, each of those causes has multiple causes. It's really not simple at all, or "black and white".

When you add selective "facts" shown on the "news" to the above, you have a combination that can be extremely misleading.

None of that means that bad things aren't happening around the world, or that we shouldn't do what we can to make the world a better place. But when we hear that certain people did something good or bad, it can be valuable to ask why?

The US, UK, and Europe share blame for many of the problems in the Middle East and Northern Africa (and around the world for that matter) today. That's something that you RARELY see on news stories in the west. Who put some of these dictators in power? Or, what situation allowed them to come to power? Then, what would YOU do if you grew up in such an environment? What you would believe, based on what you were taught, on your limited experiences and knowledge? Again, these things are very complex, and those complexities are almost never mentioned.

In addition to that, as Lysander wrote, a person may be surprised at how different a place is compared to how that place is presented in the media. And that goes for everyone.

Certainly, there are both good and bad people playing and making music, of all kinds. There is music with loving lyrics, and music with hateful lyrics. But music itself is neutral.

For me, the depth of Ottoman/Arabic/Persian music is amazing, in large measure due to the variety of sources of the music, coming from so many different cultures and traditions. There is so much to learn and explore, and so much to enjoy about it. And the oud as an instrument is awesome. The freedom of expression it allows is incredible. It is a beautiful instrument, capable of making beautiful music!

So I would keep in mind that things are really never what they seem on the surface. There is always more than meets the eye. Some good, and some bad. And that applies to EVERY place, culture, and history. Fortunately for us, we can choose to take only the good, and to explore the depths of those things.

hartun - 1-15-2014 at 03:03 PM

charlie, as some others have said you should realize that

1. Not all oud players and oud music is Muslim, I myself am Armenian Christian (and Armenians are entirely Christian at least in a nominal or cultural sense), and I consider the instrument an integral part of our culture. Its just an instrument that has become popular that happens to have been invented by the Arabs (yes I know about the Persian Barbat, but supposedly that had a skin soundboard and I just feel its kind of a completely different instrument). We don't think of it as an Arabic instrument. Just as the violin is used in Arab music even though its a "Western Instrument" but no one ever makes mention of that fact. The oud is one of the integral instruments in West Armenian music, and in Greek music of Asia Minor.

2. Fanatical Muslims, the same people doing the killing, like the Taliban, hate the oud. The oud has not fared well in Iraq recently see here: http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2010/03/29/oud...

A friend of mine spent some time in Syria and there was a painting of an oud player on the wall and someone said something to the effect of "that person's going to Hell" and my friend asked why and they said all musicians go to Hell.

3. Not to insult Muslims but not all Arabs are Muslim. Simon Shaheen who's one of the most famous oud players for example is a Melkite Catholic. Which is pretty much the oldest Church in existence going back to the conversion of Antioch by Peter and Paul.

4. Most Muslims are not killers. When the Armenian Genocide took place, the Turkish leaders riled up the uneducated masses by telling them they would get to heaven by killing Armenians. Not everyone listened - in particular the Kurdish tribes of the Dersim gave shelter to the Armenians. And in addition a high ranking Muslim cleric from Al-Azhar in Egypt issued a fatwa condemning the killings. As for those who orchestrated the killings - Mehmet Talat and Ismail Enver - they were atheist, nationalist, fascist and only nominally Muslims.

5. Its not the culture of the Middle East that leads to killing - its the history. The many religions that have arisen there, the many empires and civilizations have left us with many ethnic groups that lived together peacefully under the Ottomans but haven't figured out how to do so in the modern world. I don't know if you are a Christian but you might as well associate Christianity with the violence in the Middle East since almost the entire Bible takes place there.

If you think about it this way - the oud and Near Eastern Music in general has survived through the centuries usually without the approval of Islam, and sometimes even without the approval of Christianity. (Judaism does not seem to have ever frowned on instrumental music). Jesus himself probably listened to music similar to the music you play today on the oud. This music goes back back before the birth of Islam and even before the birth of Christianity. Im not trying to make some extravangant claim that the Sumerians had perfectly designed ouds and the exact makam system in place today, but i mean this is part of a legacy that goes back to those times.

The Middle East is the heart of all of Western Civilization - which is why its been fought over for centuries.

I feel your struggle as I had a similar struggle but for a completely different reason. I had read about the so called "koceks" of Turkey which 200 years ago were young boys to teens recruited to be dancing boys, essentially performing belly dancing. During the 19th century this practice was banned but it still exists in Afghanistan. They were also unsuprisingly "buggered" by the Turks as Byron relates in his memoirs of his visit to Turkey. Harold Hagopian had a series of cds he produced of Turkish classical music, one of which was "music of the dancing boys". And he said in the description that "this music had a profound effect on the repertoire and many of these songs are still played today". That freaked me out immensely. The worst part (for me) was that Lord Byron saw dancing boys in a Greek owned tavern. So even Christians were implicated in this behavior. I know you will laugh because they were Greeks, but the modern Greeks are nothing like the ancient Greeks. The modern Greeks are really Eastern Romans. (Now excuse me while I run for cover from attacks by the Greek members of this forum). Anyway, for a while I couldnt play the oud or even listen to Armenian-Turkish music, telling everyone I gave it up for Lent so they wouldnt be surprised by my lack of interest. I should note this temporary horror of the music was also fed by my severe OCD. But eventually - don't ask me how, it would be a novel - I came to terms with this and I realized that the music has nothing to do with dancing boys. The dancing boys danced to that music because that was the dance music that existed in that country. Similarly, the oud conjures up scenes of death and killing because of what's going on in those countries. But does the music of German composers conjure up images of the Holocaust? Can we not drink beer without thinking about the gassing of millions of Jews? Most who love the oud are unlikely to be killers.

What worked with me, although this is related to my OCD therapy, was to just play and if horrible thoughts came to me, just keep playing and doing what you love. "Pay no attention to it!" as Uncle Khosrove would say in William Saroyan's classic "My Name Is Aram".

RobMacKillop - 1-16-2014 at 01:44 AM

The oud is a stage where we go to express our sorrow and pain, but also joy and love. I've never believed in the notion of the artist in his or her ivory tower, completely switched off from the world. Artists can't help but be aware of the sorrows of the world, and engage with that in their music. But don't forget the joys either.

As an aside, I'd question hartun's lumping together of atheists with fascists and nationalists. As someone who, when pushed, would describe himself as an atheist, I can assure you that most atheists feel deeply the sorrows of the world, and would never dream of deliberately hurting anyone. Inconceivable! But this is also related to the original post, in that an atheist can play religious music with complete absorption and conviction. Just because you don't agree with the politics of a situation, doesn't mean you can't share the pain, suffering and joys of those involved when expressed through music of any type.

The oud itself is not religious. The oud itself is not political. No wonder the Taliban hate it...

hartun - 1-16-2014 at 09:34 AM

Rob, sorry I did not mean to offend. My point is that if Charlie is bothered by the killings caused by radical Islam, he should know that some of the worst crimes against humanity in the Middle East were committed not by faithful Muslims at all but by atheists who merely used Islam as an excuse. In other words the fighting in the Middle East is caused by politics not by religion, not exactly. These men were atheists in the sense that they had no regard for anything greater than themselves, other than I suppose the Turkish race. They didn't care for the justice of God and they didn't care for the justice of man. I'm not trying to make any kind of statement about people that come to a position of atheism for philosophical or even emotional reasons. You yourself may disregard the idea of a God, but on the other hand you have great respect i imagine for your fellow man out of i would venture to say a humanistic standard of morality and justice. These men being not only atheists but also fascists and nationalists had no regard for any standards of right and wrong. But I will gladly retract my statement. But my main point in pointing out that Enver and Talat were atheists was to make it clear that I wasn't attacking Muslims which might have been inferred based on all my comments about "not all oud music is Muslim"

RobMacKillop - 1-16-2014 at 10:30 AM

That's OK, hartun, I wasn't offended. Everyone who comes here has goodness in their heart. What a great thing to bind us together!

ALAMI - 1-18-2014 at 02:08 PM

When living in the Middle East, we unfortunately don't have the luxury to ignore the news, but that does not stop us from living.
I thought that the best answer to your questionings would be in the language we all here understand: music.
This is Bashraf Rast of Acem Bek. Recently recorded in Beirut with the great Mustapha Said-from Egypt- on oud, Ghassan Sahab-from Lebanon- on Kanun, Ahmad Salhi (Zeryab)-from Kuweit- on violin and Ahmad AlKhatib-from Palestine- percussion.

Bashraf Rast

This the Middle East...... too.

shanfara - 1-18-2014 at 10:29 PM

Hi all. What a fascinating discussion. This is my first post in this forum. As I live in the US but was born in Egypt (and just came back from a visit a few weeks ago), I can say that it's not surprising that current events in the Middle East can intermingle with the music. Regardless of what the news are (or rather what the media portrays to you what they want), I think it's a great thing that you are feeling "negative" feelings toward the music.

Bear with me on this for a bit. I'm not a professional musician but I know that they teach in music theory that the concept of a scale in European music vs. other cultures is very different. In Indian music for example, the Raga (the equivalent of a scale in Western music) does not just represent a number of notes put together to form a melody. Rather, it is much more complex as it contains within it the element of time. A certain Raga should be used in the spring while another in winter; another Raga should be used in the morning while another in the evening and so on. In Arabic music, it is argued that scales (maqamat) have an element of emotions in them. One possible reason why Arabic music does not evolve very often (every 1000 yrs or so) relative to say European classical music (evolves on the order of 100-150 yrs) is that each maqam in Arabic music is somehow tied to an emotion (happiness, sadness, etc) while the major and minor scales in European music do not have that extra "value." Since emotions of humans do not change very often throughout history, so supposedly has Arabic music remained a bit "stable."

So, maybe it is a good thing that you're feeling something when trying to play; whether negative or positive it doesn't matter. Try to reflect the feeling into the music. One of the most beautiful modern examples I've heard applying this is for the famous Naseer Shamma playing a piece called: Al Amiriya, which as I understand is a neighborhood in Baghdad that was leveled to the ground by US warplanes during the war. Note: read the translation of what he says at the beginning if you'd like in the comments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7a_K6kQ8p0

Alfaraby - 1-19-2014 at 03:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI  

Bashraf Rast
This the Middle East...... too.

Alami dear, I can't stop listening to this, especially Mostafa's oud. Oh dear, what an oud & what a player.
It's often asked what is an "Arabian oud" ? Well, this is a very good example of how an Arabian oud should be played and sound like.
Thanks neighbor :)
Regards to Mostafa, Ahmads & Ghassan.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

ALAMI - 1-19-2014 at 09:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI  

Bashraf Rast
This the Middle East...... too.

Alami dear, I can't stop listening to this, especially Mostafa's oud. Oh dear, what an oud & what a player.
It's often asked what is an "Arabian oud" ? Well, this is a very good example of how an Arabian oud should be played and sound like.
Thanks neighbor :)
Regards to Mostafa, Ahmads & Ghassan.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Mustapha has really become one great oudist. Usually he plays ouds made by Albert Mansour.
When I think that theorically, I could take my car for a 2 hours drive and pay you- and your beautiful ouds- a visit, I'd bring the old Arja oud, and a bottle of homemade Arak, with me, I am sure you'll love it...Practically, it might be easier to go to New Zealand.
In 2006, my neighborhood took a heavy air attack, doors and windows shattered, glass and debris and smoke were everywhere, my first reflex was to go and check my ouds...
Will we see a better Middle East in our lifetime?
Take care neighbor
Alami

Alfaraby - 1-20-2014 at 12:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI  
When I think that theoretically, I could take my car for a 2 hours drive and pay you- and your beautiful ouds- a visit, I'd bring the old Arja oud, and a bottle of homemade Arak, with me, I am sure you'll love it...

You've brutally "killed" me ! I'd make the tabbuleh & mazat myself :)
My late grandpa used to tell us stories about how he & his fellows had spent the night in Beirut and came back to Haifa by dawn ! OMG !
The invitation shall be open for good ... hoping that the current situation shall not last that long

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

SamirCanada - 1-20-2014 at 07:59 AM

3alam zift, zbeleh...
http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/114880-syria-jihadists-impose-ta...

On the ohter hand, big thumb up for that peice ya Alami, Mustafa is also one of my favorites. His honest playing and personality embodies the example of what a professional musician should strive for.

y3atikon el 3afieh shabab.

jdowning - 1-20-2014 at 08:00 AM

As a freshly graduated engineer in the early 1960's I lived and worked in Egypt on an important project south of Cairo that was to be of significant benefit to the Egyptian economy. I was in daily contact with 'grass roots' Egyptians at the construction site and not once, as a Westerner, did I experience any hatred or prejudice towards me just because I was British (unlike my experiences later in life when working in Scotland and Quebec). This was a difficult period for the Egyptian people following the 'Suez Crisis' when Western trade sanctions were in force and a lot of what might be regarded as essentials were difficult to obtain.
Religious beliefs never played a part either and I had little idea or interest about the religion of the people that I worked with and vice versa.
I felt privileged to have had this experience - and to have heard for the first time traditional Arabic music and song performed in its 'natural' environment.

Now that was about 50 years ago and to judge from the usual sensationalist international media reports that we are bombarded with on a daily basis, times would appear to have changed considerably - and, sadly, not for the betterment of Middle Eastern society or the rest of the world.

There is no doubt that outside forces can adversely affect a musician's enthusiasm or ability to play an instrument but this is nothing new. Here is a manuscript of a poem from the mid 16th C by the Englishman Sir Thomas Wyatt entitled 'Blame not my Lute' that, taken at face value (there are deeper meanings by interpretation), describes his difficulties in not being able to play the lute properly due to audience pressure (and not because of his lute). He was happily, in the end, able to overcome this problem by ignoring these outside influences that were preying on his mind.
The attached pages of the original manuscript will be difficult for most to follow - being written in 16th C phonetic English script. However, for those interested, a Google search will find ample examples providing more details of the text and interpretation of the poem.

Good luck!





[file]30109[/file] [file]30111[/file]

bulerias1981 - 1-20-2014 at 06:24 PM

I've played Mustafa's oud when I was in Beirut. He uses an oud from Albert Mansour with gut strings. He has a great disdain for "plastic" strings.. and considers himself traditiona Arabic, but with a new flavor, not having to import anything.. which I think is accurate about him.

charlie oud - 1-21-2014 at 05:23 AM

I had no idea this thread would reveal such thought, feeling and personal philosophies when I started it. It has been comforting to know others have had their moments of feeling exiled from some kinds of music for non musical reasons. It has been even more comforting to hear of their return back to their music and instrument, with a restored outlook.
I would like to thank Mike and the administrators for letting this thread run because it has clearly made for some uncomfortable reading in places but has ultimately shown a compassion toward the oud, it's music and it's meaning, it's power and it's purpose. It also shows a healthy attitude in those who have contributed.
When I next play my oud I will think of you all. Thanks guys. :bowdown:

jdowning - 1-21-2014 at 05:35 AM

John - this continues off topic but when you say that Mustafa uses gut strings and does not import anything do you know where in the middle east he obtains his strings and the name of the company that makes them - or any other information about his strings. For example does he use metal wound strings for the basses or just plain gut throughout?
I ask because I have yet to find evidence of any middle eastern string makers which, of course, does not mean there aren't any. The oud strings that I found that were available in Cairo in the early 1960's were gut trebles and silk core wound basses. They were imported - manufactured in France.
Instrument string making - being a highly specialised trade - alternative sources other than the well known Western makers might be of interest to forum members?

Brian Prunka - 1-21-2014 at 08:00 AM

I think John was referring to musical influences, not strings. Interesting that he uses gut strings—they are very expensive and don't last very long, something that would seem to discourage a lot of people.

RobMacKillop - 1-21-2014 at 08:47 AM

Not so, in my experience, Brian. I've played lutes and historical guitars for 20 years or more, and have a lot of experience with gut strings. Yes, the first string might break quickly, and most users put a nylgut or nylon string on the first. But the rest can last for years. I have a set of gut and silk strings on a classical guitar which have been on for two years, and which show no signs of breaking.

But you must buy good gut. I use Aquila. In my experience, La Bella gut strings are the worst.

Brian Prunka - 1-21-2014 at 09:15 AM

I would think that the first and second string would make the most difference in terms of sound.

Also, playing with a plectrum I expect leads to a different string life expectancy than playing with the fingers/fingernails.

I'm glad to hear that gut strings have lasted a long time for you. Have you tried gut from Savarez and Pyramid? How does it compare to Aquila? I discussed getting gut from Aquila for oud but Mimmo did not want to be bothered.

RobMacKillop - 1-21-2014 at 10:08 AM

Hi Brian,

I've tried both Savarez and Pyramid. The former are better than the latter, but neither compare with Aquila. I must state categorically that I have no association with the company.
Some companies use bull gut, which is tougher, but I haven't tried it. I think one of the companies has the humorous name of Toro, but I might be imagining that!

I don't play with nails, just finger flesh, so I agree that both nails and plectra might do more damage, and shorten the life expectancy. So, there is probably some truth in your assertion.
Cheers,
Rob

charlie oud - 1-21-2014 at 10:24 AM

(We're off topic now but I'm a little relieved by that as I seem to have started a heavy thread)
Yes, I agree with you Rob. I too used gut on my 6 course renaissance lute some years ago now and I remember them lasting a very long time, and I could not find any modern string to sound as sweet and full. The 'chanterelle' (single 1st course) was always a problem with gut even way back in the 16th century. The open 1st course pitch of 'g' equivalent to the 7th position 1st course on the oud meant this string needed to be really thin, But if you got a good one this could also last a very long time.
Brian (apart from being an outstanding player) you are our finest ambassador/supplier for oud strings and options. It's a shame Aquilla were not interested in doing an oud gut set. I hope some time a company will develop a standard gut set for the oud. Keep at em Brian !!!

RobMacKillop - 1-21-2014 at 10:29 AM

Good post, Charlie. I'm enjoying the twists and turns of this unusual thread :)

jdowning - 1-21-2014 at 11:17 AM

So are there any gut string makers in the middle eastern regions?

Beef gut seems to be used by some Western historical gut string makers but was never considered to be a suitable material in the past (17th C) as it was too 'flabby' and weak compared to the preferred fresh intestines of sheep, felines or canines that did not require splitting - as beef intestines do - for making the thinnest strings.
However these days one must compromise and make do with what is commercially available (sausage casings soaked in preservative chemicals) I suppose if intending to make gut instrument strings.

NeighborOud - 1-21-2014 at 11:28 AM

There have been human conflicts since the beginning of times... except we hear and see more of them because of the modern media. There are people who perpetuate hatred between people, and this is fueled by ignorance of other people's customs or culture.

People who have lived in different countries, and have been the object of discrimination because of their culture, religion or race understand how futile these conflicts are.

There will always be people doing stupid things, but there are also a LOT more people doing good things.

I have stayed and lived in several countries during the past 30 years or so, I can tell you there are good people everywhere!

Best thing is to focus on the good things and pray that all the people who do bad see the light and stop hurting others.

Peace to all! And long live the music.


PS. I started taking Arabic lessons: fascinating language! That will be my fourth spoken language...

hartun - 1-21-2014 at 11:08 PM

hey guys....didn't even know you could still get gut strings for anything. so are there any gut strings made for oud and where do you get them?

Brian Prunka - 1-22-2014 at 06:53 AM

I have some gut strings available for the c', g, and d courses, they are made by Pyramid and Savarez.

Ararat66 - 1-22-2014 at 01:38 PM

Hi Charlie

How are you doing buddy :)

What an interesting thread and a can of worms. I don't have this 'problem' myself, I just would like to be a better player :) which is enough to be getting on with !!! but what a musical adventure. OK Charlie here goes, you have a lot of really good UK oud buddies, loads of amazing and diverse musicians here on this forum completely and no doubt unfeasibly obsessed by this magical instrument and completely supportive of the rest of us.

Maybe tell yourself of all the negative things that go on in other places in the West (ie xenophobia, bigotry, etc etc)and remind yourself that you perhaps wouldn't have the same issue with say the guitar or piano because they are played there ... it's just what you attach to the instrument, not the instrument. It is true the oud isn't just an Islamic instrument but Islam isn't a problem either - extremism and hate is down to the individual ultimately and like everything else not restricted to one geographic zone.

The oud is a somewhat magical resonating chamber (to say the least) with a unique voice expressed through diverse players and music ... just add your voice and you'll be fine - I always enjoy hearing you play btw ... see you soon at the next meeting ?

Cheers

Leon

Lysander - 1-22-2014 at 03:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66  

The oud is a somewhat magical resonating chamber (to say the least) with a unique voice expressed through diverse players and music ... just add your voice and you'll be fine - I always enjoy hearing you play btw ... see you soon at the next meeting ?


There are UK oud meetings?

charlie oud - 1-23-2014 at 05:36 AM

Hi Leon
Great to hear from you buddy, I was wondering if or when one of the gang would see or respond to my post. Indeed you and others have made constructive and valid points.
I feel kind of bad for starting this post as perhaps people will see me differently now, think I'm a bit dodgy, xenophobic or anti something or other. Everyone has contributed with measured and rational responses.
An instrument cannot be held responsible for anything, neither can a gun, or even a god. Responsibility for humanity rests squarely upon the shoulders of all human beings the world over. I accept this responsibility as an individual. I don't see my 'opinion' as being in any way important.
Give my love to Blondie, she swings, I enjoy your playing and hope to see you sometime this year. Thanks to all of you who have commented in this thread.

charlie oud - 1-23-2014 at 08:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by shanfara  
Hi all. What a fascinating discussion. This is my first post in this forum. As I live in the US but was born in Egypt (and just came back from a visit a few weeks ago), I can say that it's not surprising that current events in the Middle East can intermingle with the music. Regardless of what the news are (or rather what the media portrays to you what they want), I think it's a great thing that you are feeling "negative" feelings toward the music.

Bear with me on this for a bit. I'm not a professional musician but I know that they teach in music theory that the concept of a scale in European music vs. other cultures is very different. In Indian music for example, the Raga (the equivalent of a scale in Western music) does not just represent a number of notes put together to form a melody. Rather, it is much more complex as it contains within it the element of time. A certain Raga should be used in the spring while another in winter; another Raga should be used in the morning while another in the evening and so on. In Arabic music, it is argued that scales (maqamat) have an element of emotions in them. One possible reason why Arabic music does not evolve very often (every 1000 yrs or so) relative to say European classical music (evolves on the order of 100-150 yrs) is that each maqam in Arabic music is somehow tied to an emotion (happiness, sadness, etc) while the major and minor scales in European music do not have that extra "value." Since emotions of humans do not change very often throughout history, so supposedly has Arabic music remained a bit "stable."

So, maybe it is a good thing that you're feeling something when trying to play; whether negative or positive it doesn't matter. Try to reflect the feeling into the music. One of the most beautiful modern examples I've heard applying this is for the famous Naseer Shamma playing a piece called: Al Amiriya, which as I understand is a neighborhood in Baghdad that was leveled to the ground by US warplanes during the war. Note: read the translation of what he says at the beginning if you'd like in the comments. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7a_K6kQ8p0
[/url]
This is a very insightful reflection, pulling together the more musical strands of this thread and clarifying the emotional connections. Thank you shanfara and welcome to the forum.

Ararat66 - 1-23-2014 at 08:30 AM

Hi Charlie

I don't think folk will see you in a negative light ... a sensitive soul maybe but you wouldn't be alone. Blondie is a bit of a flirt I have to say ... and getting louder this year for some reason !!!

Cheers

Leon

charlie oud - 1-23-2014 at 08:44 AM

Thanks mate, appreciate that. Tell blondie she can flirt with me any time !!!! (to translate for all, the 'Blondie' we are referring to is Leon's lovely Oud) :airguitar: