Mike's Oud Forums

Büzürk makam?

Lysander - 3-5-2014 at 12:36 PM

I was looking through some links posted here and came across the name of this makam. I can't seem to find anything on it though. Does anyone know the scale of this makam and/or the progression?

Edit: found some information here, looks like a very unusual makam.

http://www.octave.at/tm/sistemler/sistemci_okulda_araliklar.htm

Here's a very nice piece in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3p2XQ4xujA

Lysander - 3-16-2014 at 11:27 AM

I'm still searching for information on this. It seems like the more modern name for this makam is Pencigah. Does anyone know the scale of it or more about it?

DavidJE - 3-16-2014 at 01:25 PM

My teacher taught me Pencgah as being similar to Rast in terms of the intervals, but often using a C# (nim hicaz) instead of a C natural, in Turkish notation.

It's probably not best to use the term "scale", but the tetra/pentachords instead. So it can be a Rast pentachord on G and a Rast tetrachord on D, but the characteristic aspect is a "Pencgah" pentachord on G and then a Rast tetrachord on D:

G, A, Bb (segah), C# (nim hicaz), D, E, F#, G

I've only got a couple of compositions in it, but in both of those compositions and in Murat Aydemir's book it is an "ascending-descending" makam, starting around the D (neva), and not going up much above the G before coming back down to the tonic. Like Rast, on the way back down there is often a Buselik tetrachord or F natural on the way down.

Lysander - 3-16-2014 at 02:18 PM

Quote:
It's probably not best to use the term "scale", but the tetra/pentachords instead.


I used this term since I have been rereading Muellam's The Maqam Book where he makes a distinction between what he calls the "scale of a maqam" and the maqam itself. But yes, maybe I should focus on calling things by tetra/penta etc.
Quote:
I've only got a couple of compositions in it, but in both of those compositions and in Murat Aydemir's book it is an "ascending-descending" makam, starting around the D (neva), and not going up much above the G before coming back down to the tonic. Like Rast, on the way back down there is often a Buselik tetrachord or F natural on the way down.


So this makam traditionally starts on G or D? Either way, thank you for the information, I scoured the internet and could hardly find anything on this makam. The link I gave in the first post is rather confusing with how it denotes it.

DavidJE - 3-16-2014 at 11:32 PM

I understand that many people use the phrase "scale of a makam". I use it sometimes myself. But I've come to think that using that phrase can be misleading, particularly to those who don't know much about these things. And, although I'm really still a beginner myself, I think always thinking about them in terms of the tetra/pentachords makes more sense. Also, it makes it easier to see how the intervals change. Instead of thinking about the entire scale as changing, you can think...the bottom pentachord is rast (and thus has a rast "flavor"), but frequently changes to pencgah (with a pencgah "flavor"), etc. I've read a couple of different books where the authors use the term "flavor" or "spice" to talk about a particular tetra/pentachord. I think that's really nice. If you have a feeling for the different flavors, then you can add them at will in a way that "tastes" good. Additionally, as I'm sure you know, some makam "scales" don't repeat, so the term scales doesn't work in that regard either. But if you use the tetra/pentachords, then you can accurately describe the bits below the primary tetra/pentachords.

The tonic of the makam is G, and the dominant is D. I think it can possibly start on G and *quickly* go up to D, and hang around there. Or, more typically, it may start right around D (which I believe is the case with the compositions I have). At the end of the composition/taksim, it falls all the way down to the tonic.

Keep in mind that this is for Turkish notation. Maybe I should say that the tonic is rast and the dominant is neva. So, those may be different "notes" in Arabic notation.

Lysander - 3-17-2014 at 04:13 AM

Quote:
Instead of thinking about the entire scale as changing, you can think...the bottom pentachord is rast (and thus has a rast "flavor"), but frequently changes to pencgah (with a pencgah "flavor"), etc. I've read a couple of different books where the authors use the term "flavor" or "spice" to talk about a particular tetra/pentachord. I think that's really nice. If you have a feeling for the different flavors, then you can add them at will in a way that "tastes" good.



I really like this idea and way of description. It's like a spice cupboard of tetrachords and each ingrediant contributes to a different flavoured makam.
Quote:
The tonic of the makam is G, and the dominant is D. I think it can possibly start on G and *quickly* go up to D, and hang around there. Or, more typically, it may start right around D (which I believe is the case with the compositions I have). At the end of the composition/taksim, it falls all the way down to the tonic.


This would be very low for a maqam, the lowest I know is Yakah which starts on A. I suppose it's more likely that it starts on D, and the stave linked in the first post starts it off on that note.

DavidJE - 3-17-2014 at 04:20 AM

Yes, the spices/flavors analogy is very nice!

G (rast) is the note on the second line of the staff, going up from the bottom. And D (neva) is the 4th line up on the staff. Maybe I should write "g" and "d" instead? These notes are not particularly low.

Jono Oud N.Z - 3-17-2014 at 01:06 PM

Maqam Panjgah (Pencgah) has two versions.

The main/modern one is maqam Rast mixed with jins Nishabour.

Nishabour, Arabic tuning = E,F#,g,a,bb,(c, d).

Demetrie Cantemir describes Panjgah as a compound maqam.

Maqam Nakriz, (up to the mid/late 1800's, as described by Mikhail Mishaqa (1800-1888/1889), was = C,D,Ed,F,g, a, bb (bd), c.

I am interested in Buzurk also and keen to learn more about this forgotten maqam.

Lysander - 3-18-2014 at 08:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
Yes, the spices/flavors analogy is very nice!

G (rast) is the note on the second line of the staff, going up from the bottom. And D (neva) is the 4th line up on the staff. Maybe I should write "g" and "d" instead? These notes are not particularly low.


I think I know where the confusion is coming from on my part. You are talking about concert D? Which is written as G on the stave, I think. Which is not low, no. I was thinking about concert G.

DavidJE - 3-18-2014 at 12:45 PM

Quote:
I think I know where the confusion is coming from on my part. You are talking about concert D? Which is written as G on the stave, I think. Which is not low, no. I was thinking about concert G.


Yes, I was talking about the notes as written on the staff. So, the note rast, always written in Turkish notation as a G. But, played on the oud...yeah...a concert D pitch in Bolahenk tuning.