Mike's Oud Forums

A VOCATIONAL MANIFESTO

farukturunz - 3-11-2014 at 07:51 AM


I have spent 31 years of my life for oud making art and developed a very precise method for building the oud instrument not only with good looking and standardized but also with a consistently high quality sound.

Having been known over the course of these years I am receiving a large amount of special orders now which makes it impossible to work alone. I have to employ some specialized workers. Today the number of the employees in my workshop is 8.

If compared to Guitar the oud is more complex in terms of form. To construct an oud you need more working hours and skill.

We, as musicians and makers of this culture need to revise our standpoint. A maker is not a slave although I always try to emphasize that I am a servant in this oud world...I am saying these words being well avare of the economical hardships govern some parts of the oud related communities.

I am demanding very humble price for my high grade instruments compared to any handmade guitar's price.

The monthly wages + rent + tax + transaction costs excede the endorsement.

So I am selling my ouds under the prime cost.

I have to create some exceptional models and sell them for a reasonable price but still not compatible witha handmade guitar's...

I appreciate all criticisms for the price of my ouds but I also expect understanding from those critics.

In order to be deserving of my attributive word "to be a servant in the oud world" I am offering an affordable model: Reduced Price Oud.

http://www.oudmaster.com/reduced-price.php

With deep respect to all oud lovers.

respect

PaulS - 3-11-2014 at 09:17 PM

Dear Sir,
As someone who everyday enjoys the beauty of one of your creations, I am immensely grateful for both your craftsmanship and your willingness to provide these instruments at a reduced price.
I have great respect for your work toalso produce the very best quality oud and to ask for a fair price for it.
I wish you continued success in your work.

farukturunz - 3-12-2014 at 06:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulS  
Dear Sir,
As someone who everyday enjoys the beauty of one of your creations, I am immensely grateful for both your craftsmanship and your willingness to provide these instruments at a reduced price.
I have great respect for your work toalso produce the very best quality oud and to ask for a fair price for it.
I wish you continued success in your work.


Thank you PaulS...

I will try to continue to elevate all the aspects of the oud instrument in good faith.

Best regards...

MatthewW - 3-14-2014 at 10:06 AM

Dear Usta Faruk

Your finely crafted ouds will be your legacy. Your Manifesto is both humble and understated, yet in the true spirit of a master craftsman motivated by his love of the instrument and of bringing joy and contentment to those who purchase one.

Dr. Oud - 3-14-2014 at 06:46 PM

The market price of any product is determined by the value as perceived by the market, or customer base. Guitars enjoy a higher price point because of their perceived value, not as a factor of the cost of labor, facilities, or materials. Factory made guitars sell up to $5,000. An established guitar maker can get around $5,000, the top makers are making around $15,000. Violins enjoy an even higher price (Chinese factory made excepted.) A registered master made violin can reach $30,000. The oud suffers from a limited market volume as well as the influence of cheap ouds on ebay. Another factor is the low number of oud players who can appreciate and even afford a master made oud. Oud makers often have a day job (the Nahhats were furniture makers) to supplement their income to provide for a family. I was recently at a guitar exposition where electric guitars made in the 1950's in factories were selling for $25,000. It's a jungle out there.

MatthewW - 3-15-2014 at 12:44 AM

You're right Richard, it is a jungle out there and the value of any instrument is determined by it's customer and fan base. There is a 1951 Selmer Petite Bouche currently for sale, serial number 862, the type of guitar Django Rheinhardt played. It's only $36,000. A 1939 Martin guitar used by Eric Clapton was a real deal at only $791,500. :cool:
In comparison what would an oud owned and played by Farid sell for, or a vintage Abdo Nahat?

Dr. Oud - 3-15-2014 at 07:17 AM

The highest price I've heard of was a Nahhat owned by Munir Bashir (with certification) bought by a museum in Germany for $10,000. Vintage Nahhats have sold for $3,00 to $8,000 USD depending on age, specific maker, decoration, condition and sound.

Ottoman - 3-16-2014 at 05:19 AM


I just would like to repeat what I have said before: The way you are making oud and your innovative approach deserve a great appreciation. You should keep it up.

However, I recommend that you should offer more low priced ouds, as I know many people who cannot afford most of your ouds. The cheapest one is $1300 as you mention, and it is around 2800 Turkish liras which is not affordable for many people, especially for young oud lovers. You're telling that you are not interested in marketing anymore since you don't need it, you should then promote the oud instrument by making it more affordable to draw youngsters' attention, for instance. I know many young people who are interested in buying oud, but they prefer buying factory-made ouds, which is not good. Most probably, factory-made ouds make those young people less reluctant and might even kill their oud passion.

Another point: offering more low priced ouds doesn't mean that other expensive models should be reduced.

Last point: I don't think that the comparison between oud makers and guitar makers is right. In Turkish, we have saying: "a bad example cannot set an example"

I make these recommendations because I care the oud instrument and want it to be much more popular, especially amongst young people.

Regards

DavidJE - 3-16-2014 at 07:22 AM

Ottoman: Maybe you didn't understand what Faruk explained. His rent + salaries + materials, etc., makes it impossible to sell one of his ouds for less than his reduced priced ouds. He has higher expenses than a single guy making ouds on the site. Surely you don't expect him to spend his time making ouds only to lose money, right?!?!

If someone can't afford a custom made oud, then they just have to buy a cheaper/factory made oud. Or, save their money until they can.

Dr. Oud - 3-16-2014 at 08:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ottoman  
....Last point: I don't think that the comparison between oud makers and guitar makers is right. In Turkish, we have saying: "a bad example cannot set an example"....

The comparison I made was between the guitar market and the oud market, not the makers. The market determines price without a relational consideration of the maker's skill or expenses. Skill is necessary to produce high quality, but the price for that quality is set by the market value. Unfortunately a high quality oud is simply not worth as much as a high quality guitar. At the low end, a low quality guitar can still be played, while many of the low quality ouds are merely ornamental objects and should not be considered musical instruments. The materials are so bad that they cannot be repaired to a playable standard and gain a value equal to the cost of the repair.

farukturunz - 3-17-2014 at 02:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ottoman  

I just would like to repeat what I have said before: The way you are making oud and your innovative approach deserve a great appreciation. You should keep it up.

However, I recommend that you should offer more low priced ouds, as I know many people who cannot afford most of your ouds. The cheapest one is $1300 as you mention, and it is around 2800 Turkish liras which is not affordable for many people, especially for young oud lovers. You're telling that you are not interested in marketing anymore since you don't need it, you should then promote the oud instrument by
making it more affordable to draw youngsters' attention, for instance. I know many young people who are interested in buying oud, but they prefer buying factory-made ouds, which is not good. Most probably, factory-made ouds make those young people less reluctant and might even kill their oud passion.

Another point: offering more low priced ouds doesn't mean that other expensive models should be reduced.

Last point: I don't think that the comparison between oud makers and guitar makers is right. In Turkish, we have saying: "a bad example cannot set an example"

I make these recommendations because I care the oud instrument and want it to be much more popular, especially amongst young people.

Regards


Hello Ottoman and other friends involved in my thread.

Firs Ottoman: I think your point of views needs to be revised by you or I should interfere.

My thread openly sets forth the real conditions of a manufacturer company like mine. As a literate person I am fully informed about the laws of economics. But I have never thought of being reponsible for easing those economic conditions for the sake of cultural targets... Since I am not supposed to be more than what I am indeed, to think the other way is not logical. I am not the Ministry of Cultur. Nor am I a charity institution.
I have a proposal to you: Since you say "because I care the oud instrument and want it to be much more popular, especially amongst young people"...Lets establish a cooperation, you and me, and lets support those who can not afford my ouds. You pay the half and I sell the Reduced Price Ouds for $500.- including a handmade hard case and shipping...

Please think twice before behaving heroically...
Best regards

As for the comparison the oud and the other instruments: It was a mere reminding. The real message was in my other words: We, as musicians and makers of this culture need to revise our standpoint. A maker is not a slave although I always try to emphasize that I am a servant in this oud world...I am saying these words being well avare of the economical hardships govern some parts of the oud related communities.


Best regards to all.

Ottoman - 3-17-2014 at 03:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  

My thread openly sets forth the real conditions of a manufacturer company like mine. As a literate person I am fully informed about the laws of economics. But I have never thought of being reponsible for easing those economic conditions for the sake of cultural targets... Since I am not supposed to be more than what I am indeed, to think the other way is not logical. I am not the Ministry of Cultur. Nor am I a charity institution.
I have a proposal to you: Since you say "because I care the oud instrument and want it to be much more popular, especially amongst young people"...Lets establish a cooperation, you and me, and lets support those who can not afford my ouds. You pay the half and I sell the Reduced Price Ouds for $500.- including a handmade hard case and shipping...


If I were like you financially, I would definitely say 'yes' to this request. I cannot even imagine getting $2700 by selling "one" oud in Turkey. It's a lot of money and yet it is your cheapest oud apart from 'so-called reduced price point oud'. Come on man, I know the economic circumstances in Turkey.
Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  

Please think twice before behaving heroically...


Please think twice before replying with anger, Faruk. Those were simple recommendations, there is no need to get angry. Just say I want to earn more money which would be enough. Noone would have a right to criticise you in that case.

Best.

DavidJE - 3-17-2014 at 04:04 AM

Quote:
If I were like you financially, I would definitely say 'yes' to this request. I cannot even imagine getting $2700 by selling "one" oud in Turkey. It's a lot of money and yet it is your cheapest oud apart from 'so-called reduced price point oud'. Come on man, I know the economic circumstances in Turkey.


Have you ever been to Faruk's shop??? I have. It's a big shop with lots of machinery. Do you know how much his rent is? Do you know how much he plays his 8 employees? Do you know how much he has paid for his machinery? Faruk needs to pay EIGHT people in addition to rent, utilities, material, taxes, etc. I don't think you have any idea how Faruk is doing financially.
Quote:
Please think twice before replying with anger, Faruk. Those were simple recommendations, there is no need to get angry. Just say I want to earn more money which would be enough. Noone would have a right to criticise you in that case.


You are implying something here about Faruk that is wrong. If I were Faruk, I would probably be at least a little frustrated with this implication. But I hope he can accept that most of us on this forum understand these things.

Ottoman - 3-17-2014 at 05:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  

Have you ever been to Faruk's shop??? I have. It's a big shop with lots of machinery. Do you know how much his rent is? Do you know how much he plays his 8 employees? Do you know how much he has paid for his machinery? Faruk needs to pay EIGHT people in addition to rent, utilities, material, taxes, etc. I don't think you have any idea how Faruk is doing financially.


Yes, I know his shop. I even know some of his workers. I just don't think that the price of Faruk's ouds are "humble" as mentioned in his 'manifesto'! I know other oud makers in Turkey and their expenditures. Let's be honest here, the prices aren't humble.

Best

farukturunz - 3-17-2014 at 06:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ottoman  
Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  

My thread openly sets forth the real conditions of a manufacturer company like mine. As a literate person I am fully informed about the laws of economics. But I have never thought of being reponsible for easing those economic conditions for the sake of cultural targets... Since I am not supposed to be more than what I am indeed, to think the other way is not logical. I am not the Ministry of Cultur. Nor am I a charity institution.
I have a proposal to you: Since you say "because I care the oud instrument and want it to be much more popular, especially amongst young people"...Lets establish a cooperation, you and me, and lets support those who can not afford my ouds. You pay the half and I sell the Reduced Price Ouds for $500.- including a handmade hard case and shipping...


If I were like you financially, I would definitely say 'yes' to this request. I cannot even imagine getting $2700 by selling "one" oud in Turkey. It's a lot of money and yet it is your cheapest oud apart from 'so-called reduced price point oud'. Come on man, I know the economic circumstances in Turkey.
Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  

Please think twice before behaving heroically...


Please think twice before replying with anger, Faruk. Those were simple recommendations, there is no need to get angry. Just say I want to earn more money which would be enough. Noone would have a right to criticise you in that case.

Best.


My last words to such a person who is so persistent in his own opinion: It's none of your business. Appearently you are not in the position to advise me how many times should I think before replying with anger to someone who is not like me finacially but sees himself authorized in my finacial issues. Who are you please? Let me reply: Someone irresponsibly trying to decry my relations and name pretending as if having nothing but good intentions. That is so clear. nothing more nothing less. IT's none of your business gentleman!

Ottoman - 3-17-2014 at 06:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  

My last words to such a person who is so persistent in his own opinion: It's none of your business. Appearently you are not in the position to advise me how many times should I think before replying with anger to someone who is not like me finacially but sees himself authorized in my finacial issues. Who are you please? Let me reply: Someone irresponsibly trying to decry my relations and name pretending as if having nothing but good intentions. That is so clear. nothing more nothing less. IT's none of your business gentleman!


Here is a response of an agry man :) Thanks for your honesty, Faruk.
You put yourself in a position to advise me that "I should think twice before behaving herocially" but when you're offered the same, you get angry. This is your dilemma.
Don't get angry, it isn't good for you as you're quite old. Take care.

Best

farukturunz - 3-17-2014 at 06:32 AM

Thank you calm man :) ! If this will make you happy, contented and satisfied :)