Mike's Oud Forums

Beginner checklist: how does this look?

Hummingbird - 4-3-2014 at 04:32 AM

Hi everyone,

I'm a new beginner looking to take up oud. I play qin, fiddle, bagpipe, and a little guitar, but have never tried my hand at oud before. I was wondering if you more knowledgeable folk would take a look at this plan and tell me if there's anything missing, or that I could be doing better. My interest is primarily in Arabic oud, at least for now.

1. Get one of the apprentice ours from mauriceoudshop.com.

2. Get the Marina Toshich oud tutor and The Maqam Book by David Muallem.

3. Sign up for the oud for guitarists course.

4. Save money for an oud from one of my local luthiers down the line, and for lessons later. I'd like to start lessons sooner, but the next several months my schedule is going to be too varied to commit to regular lessons, so I figured in the meantime the book and course would let me get started.

What do you all think? Anything else I should be doing? Any alternate suggestions? Any advice much appreciated!

SamirCanada - 4-3-2014 at 04:55 AM

I think you are on the right track, the online courses are the way to go if you dont have a local teacher. Check kijiji or craiglist sometimes you can find a teacher nearby. I am myself entirely selft taught from the learn to play videos on here and also from the youtube videos around, you can learn that way also but it will probably take you longer and you need more discipline in terms of correcting your technique.

I personally think this cd to learn is great bang for your buck: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEARN-MAQAMAT-on-OUD-VERSION-2-OUD-BASICS-/...

As for which oud to buy, buy the best oud you can afford while thinking about the future. If you think you will want to upgrade eventually why not go for the professional model Shehata ouds Mike is selling? its not a whole lot more money but you will not be hampered by potential issues that may affect a beginer oud (namely pegs and action) they will be perfect on a Shehata oud.

Then again, if you go for the beginer oud, you will have a oud which you dont mind taking with you for a picknick and then once you get more experienced you will want to eventually upgrade and buy more ouds, this will happen fast especially if you fall in love with the instrument. I have had times where I owned 10 ouds. I am down to 4 now but you can never really have only 1 oud :D

Brian Prunka - 4-3-2014 at 04:56 AM

I would recommend that you take at least two lessons in the beginning to get you started. The oud risha technique is not something most can pick up without someone showing you.
Once you have a couple lessons to get the gist of the risha technique, you can work on your own and have a teacher correct bad habits later.

The maqam book is informative but won't really help with your playing as a beginner. You are better off learning some pieces. Marina's book should be helpful, I'm not really familiar with it. I think there are some pieces in there to learn.

Some pieces I use with beginners to get started:

Raqset el Jamal
Al Fann
Baladil Mahbub (instrumental by M.A. Wahab)
Lamma Bada Yatathanna

I'd recommend considering Simon Shaheen's retreat in Massachussetts in August if you really want to learn.

Lysander - 4-3-2014 at 08:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
The maqam book is informative but won't really help with your playing as a beginner. You are better off learning some pieces.


Having read the book twice, I can confirm Brian's thinking here. Even though the book is useful at breaking down the basic similarities and differences between Eastern and Western music, it won't do much to help you as a player. As Ross Daly says on the Oud for Guitarists site:

"Reading Makam theory and other such pursuits are of limited value. Listening to good players and absorbing repertoire are the most important things."

I think many people will tell you the listening is more important than reading. Listen, listen, listen to the good players such as Munir Bashir/Omar Bashir, Simon Shaneen, Naseer Shamma etc for Arabic oud, and Yurdal Tokcan, Udi Hrant and Necati Celik for Turkish oud. For my upcoming degree I am counting listening as valid research. You really have to get this music inside of you, and listening will do more than reading.

I have found the Theory section of David Parfitt's Oud site invaluable recently for learning makamlar, especially the way he adds visual fingering diagrams for each makam.

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/theory.html

Hummingbird - 4-3-2014 at 09:07 AM

Thanks everyone for the advice so far, this is all really helpful.

Samir: Thank you for telling me about the DVD, looks great, but I have a mac, not a pc, so no way to play it. I'll look around and see if one of my tech friends knows how to convert it. My thoughts on getting one of the apprentice ones to start were a) to have a 'picnic' instrument as you put it, that I could carry around with me without worrying as much, b) if I'm going to pay for a serious instrument, I want to play it first, or if getting it from a luthier, play instruments he/she has built previously, and c) from qin, I learned that even a few months of playing will give me a much better ability to tell what it is I actually want from the instrument, and better discern sound quality. Plus, it let's me get started now while I continue to save : ) I'm really impressed that you build your own ouds; they sound great and look really pretty! How did you get started doing that?

Brian: That's a great point about Risha, I hadn't thought of it, but it makes total sense. As I once heard from a blues guitarist, "your left hand is what you know, your right hand is who you are". I'll look into some lessons to at least get started. I would love to go to Simon Shaheen's retreat, but the dates conflict with my honeymoon. Hopefully next year! He's the first oud player I ever heard, and still my favorite. Do you know if he still teaches in NYC? I know he lives(used to live?) in Brooklyn, but didn't see any info about teaching on his website. Your point about the maqam book is well taken, I just figured it would be nice for more background reading; I saw it got good reviews here, and it's fairly cheap. I figured the cd would be nice to listen to as well

Lysander: thank you for that link, I hadn't seen it before, very helpful! Likewise for the list of players to check out; some of the Arabic players I'm already listening to, but not all, and didn't know anything about Turkish players.

Any further thoughts, please keep them coming! This is all great so far!

Brian Prunka - 4-3-2014 at 09:47 AM

Simon still lives in Brooklyn, but doesn't really teach privately anymore. He has a very busy schedule teaching at Berklee and touring doing performances and master classes, and he doesn't have time to take on private students. Are you in NY?

Hummingbird - 4-3-2014 at 10:11 AM

Thanks for the reply Brian, makes sense, figured I might as well ask. Yes, live in downtown Brooklyn, work mostly SoHo.

on the other hand

Jody Stecher - 4-3-2014 at 10:30 AM

I respectfully disagree about the value of maqam theory and the value of the Muallam book. It teaches no oud technique and the recorded examples on the accompanying CD is played on qanun, so this book is not oud-specific. However the book teaches you to HEAR. If you cannot hear you cannot play. Listening to the great oud players without basic orientation will get you nowhere unless you are born into the culture that produced the music. This book is NOT about the similarities between western music and maqam music. It is entirely about maqam music. The way it teaches it is AS A FIRST STEP it explains western music from a maqam point of view. It assumes a basic familiarity with western music and a basic unfamiliarity with maqam music. It conveys something of the maqam way of thinking by describing the familiar in unfamiliar terms. Once that way of thinking is established the book goes on to describe the main maqam families using the newly acquired cognitive tools of the reader.

SamirCanada - 4-3-2014 at 10:56 AM

my friend read what you can over here. http://www.maqamworld.com/

free info of high quality.

John Erlich - 4-3-2014 at 12:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
I would recommend that you take at least two lessons in the beginning to get you started. The oud risha technique is not something most can pick up without someone showing you.
Once you have a couple lessons to get the gist of the risha technique, you can work on your own and have a teacher correct bad habits later.

I want to echo the importance of having at least a couple of lessons with an experienced player to help prevent you from developing bad habits. Not only are bad habits harder to correct once your develop them, but certain incorrect techniques can actually cause you repetitive stress. You most certainly don't want to be, "...playing the oud like a guitar." This was what happened to me because I was totally self-taught at first. I have been playing since 1997, and only really unlearned the last of my bad habits in the last 1.5 years. If you live in Brooklyn, there are several players other than Simon Shaheen (though I think Simon's technique is not only excellent, but very "orthodox" and therefore a great starting point) who can get you started.

If you are going to the San Francisco Bay Area for your honeymoon, I would be happy to offer "couples oud therapy" to get you to get you started. :D

Good luck and all the best,
"Udi" John

Lysander - 4-3-2014 at 01:26 PM

John, how long was the gap between being self-taught and having some professional lessons? I myself am self-taught and will most likely not be getting any professional lessons till the Autumn.

Brian Prunka - 4-3-2014 at 01:45 PM

John, I'm not saying that learning about maqam is not valuable, but that from the standpoint of learning the oud, it will not make a big difference to a beginner, who is mainly going to be dealing with technical issues at first. For a westerners at least, my experience is that it's better to focus on the more familiar Nahawand/Ajam/Hijaz until some level of comfort with the instrument is developed: one thing at a time, basically.

Brian Prunka - 4-3-2014 at 01:49 PM

hummingbird, check your u2u.

Hummingbird - 4-3-2014 at 08:10 PM

Will do Brian! Samir, thank you again, that looks great!

Is this the same Jody Stecher who plays guitar, mandolin, and fiddle? If so, I love your music, and have the three DVDs you did for SFGW; they're fantastic! Wish you would do a mandolin one as well, hint hint...

Jody Stecher - 4-3-2014 at 10:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hummingbird  
Will do Brian! Samir, thank you again, that looks great!

Is this the same Jody Stecher who plays guitar, mandolin, and fiddle? If so, I love your music, and have the three DVDs you did for SFGW; they're fantastic! Wish you would do a mandolin one as well, hint hint...


that's me, guilty as charged. I'm glad you like the videos. they were done a long time ago.

Who is your guqin teacher?

Hummingbird - 4-4-2014 at 08:03 PM

Jody, I'm a student of Yeh Shihhua (Judy Yeh) of the Meian school:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOiVgH93QQk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N85K5b5JBBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODMIF2KGfbM
I've also been friends with John Thompson for a while, and have talked a lot with him about qin, and taken a couple of lessons.

John, thank you for the kind offer, but we're going to Iceland for our honeymoon; opposite direction! We're planning to go to San Fran somewhere in the next year or so though for a visit, so maybe we can meet up then : )