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Hello from a new member and 1 Big question

SV_T_oud - 8-27-2014 at 03:30 PM

Hello oud lovers and players! Hope to be among you one day but now I'm mearly an oud owner.

I have 1 big question for you all: where do I start on my own? Yes, it's always better to have a teacher but if it's impossible it's better to learn how to play on your own rather then not to play at all.

That would be too broad a question, I know :-)
So, let me help you a bit.

- does it make sense to start from learning the well-tempered scale(s) first without micro-tonal maqam variations just to get the fingers and (ear!) going and maybe learn to play some basic Western pieces (easy classics and pop-tunes)?

- for the very basic techinque - are both rest and free risha strokes used by oud players? When to use each if so?

- Any extra advice is welcome! Feel free to add comments.

One more thing: I found this older thread:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12666

...with 15 ex's by Tareq Al Jundi but unfortunately the printed materials are not avaialbe any longer at

http://www.4shared.com/zip/zz__TOc7/Oud_Exercises.html

Does any one know where I can find those files (I have no idea what was in there). Notation files?

FilipHolm - 8-28-2014 at 04:00 AM

Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of the Oud!

I've been playing for a bit over two years now and I am self-taught. I would love to find a teacher but like you it's impossible to find one in my area.
I think any tactic is a good one, as long as you get a feel for the instrument to begin with. I started with non-microtonal songs/maqams to get the fingering and feel right, and then slowly moved into the more advanced modes (still not mastered it, it's hard for a westerner to get a grip of it at first).

You could try western pop songs but my advice would be to look for less advanced middle eastern songs. This way you'll get a good idea of what the traditional way of playing is. One that I practiced alot is this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdjgBhJQ4xg

An advice I give any beginner (I would still call myself a beginner as well) is to use your ears, not your eyes. If you look at were your fingers are all the time you will have a much harder time memorizing were the notes are. It sounds cheezy but you need to close your eyes and use your ears and soul to play.
Basically, begin by studying were the notes are (with your eyes) and get an idea of the finger positions. But as soon as you have a general idea of how it works, stop using your eyes.

Also, play songs you like. It's boring to practice if you don't like what you are playing, so find a song you really enjoy and try to learn it.

Hope any of this helps :p

DoggerelPundit - 8-28-2014 at 07:43 AM

Hi SVT,

You might consider getting a copy of the Hal Leonard publication of John Bilezikjian's oud method (check Ebay). In it are all the scales written out in both notes and tablature. This includes all notes chromatically from the lowest to the highest. John B is very strong on learning scales first. Also, it is best to use proper right hand technique from the beginning; picking for the oud is unlike any other stringed instrument. There are plenty of youtubes to show you what this should look like.

-Stephen

SV_T_oud - 8-28-2014 at 09:49 AM

Thank you for the first input friends. Please keep it going...

DavidJE - 8-28-2014 at 12:43 PM

I would HIGHLY recommend at least taking a few Skype lessons. I take them from Mavrothi (a long time forum member here), and I believe there may be a couple of other members also doing them.

You can make lots of mistakes at first, learning to play things "wrong", etc. And a good teacher, even via Skype, will allow you to learn many times faster than you could on your own. The oud and Turkish/Arabic music is very complex, and having had a great teacher myself, I can't imagine doing it on my own...or...I realize how slow and convoluted the process would be. There is no good reason for anyone not to take at least a few lessons, these days. It doesn't matter where you live, since you can take them via Skype, FaceTime, etc.

SV_T_oud - 8-28-2014 at 02:04 PM

David, I appreciate your teacher recommendation with the following in mind:

Every time I start to learn a new instrument and ask for advice the best advice I get is 'Find a teacher'. I understand it's a valuable prtactice to start with a teacher but for some reason after learning to play clarinet with a teacher (did that for a year with very positive results) I dropped that practice for unknown to me reason. Well, actually known: I'm very reserved and introverted person.

However, after learning to play guitar by myself I find learning to play many fretted (not oud, mind you!) instrumemts is very similar to guitar. By the way, unlike clarinet I had poor results with a first few guitar lessons (had only couple of them) when I just started. Actually I had to change some things afterwards that were recommended to me by the guitar teacher because he didn't take into account my individual hand features. I learned that later on YT and adjusted accordingly. I'm a naturally slow learner and some teachers find me unacceptably slow. The more they push the slower I become :-)

I say "fretted" meaning 'not bowed' beacause bowed is a completely different story. If you add 'bowed' to 'unfretted' (violin) you are in trouble!

Now, oud is somewhere in between 'fretted unbowed' and 'unfretted bowed'. In a way it's much easier than "fretted" - you can put you finger anywhere on the fingerboard and you get a clean stopped note (unlike generic guitar)!
The problem is 'where to put your finger' to make it sound right and not completely original.

Sorry, that was some intelligent yet ramble.

Of course as a general rule we are not learning something conventional to get it competely wrong or "original" in the end if we want to get it "right".
However, to get it right in terms of oud (beyond "right") as far as I understand you have a to be 1) talented for that particular instrument; 2) live in the native Arabic or Turkish environment. Everything else is just an approximation.
Actually I find that watching someone playing anything "fretted" or even "unfretted" on YT and emulating is just enough to make sure you are not completely off. I doubt you can learn significantly more than "not completely off" via Skype.
Mind you, I don't neglect that practice completely. It's just a matter of attitude.

Besides, it's not a trumpet: you can watch and watch and you'll never figure out what's going on behind the mouthpiece.
I know, I've been there :-) It drove me nuts for the first couple years.
I may sound crazy but I like such challenges...

SV_T_oud - 8-28-2014 at 02:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FilipHolm

...You could try western pop songs but my advice would be to look for less advanced middle eastern songs.
...An advice I give any beginner (I would still call myself a beginner as well) is to use your ears, not your eyes.
...Hope any of this helps :p

Filip, everything you say (sorry had to reduce) is right and in line with my understanding. I thought you read my mind!

The only thing I want to comment on is where do you get "easy Middle East" songs? Actually do these songs exist?
For some reason I imagined that most of the Middle East *instrumental* pieces are improvised on maqams. Sort of you set-up a "groove" and start to develop it.

...OK, I'll add here (edit). What I mean: with the lack of harmony and hopefully strictly defined form (am I wrong about this?) in my view playing in "Middle East style" is very much like playing any modal style, say Modal Jazz. Is this a valid analogy? The Arabic modal style "quirks" are then the notorious micro-tonal variations on certain notes. It's sort of "elaborated conbined tetrachord modal improvisation" as I perceive it.

SV_T_oud - 8-28-2014 at 02:43 PM

I wanted to edit my previous post above but I better add a little here.
Was I clear about my analogy between "Modal Jazz" and "Middle East" styles of music? Sorry for the generalization. Of course IT"S NOT THAT SIMPLE - I understand that well. To say that bluntly like I said may sound like I'm trying to diminish the whole cultural layer of the Middle East music.
I'm not trying to do that, believe me. On the other hand the worst thing to do is to try making something overly-complicated.

I like and learn Jazz guitar and ironically in this context on the TrueFire site there is a course by Fareed Haque that's called "Bebop Improv Survival Guide". He is Arabic (here is the irony) and in that course he starts by saying (not exact quote but what he means): "Bebop is often presented as an overly-complicated style of Jazz improvisation. Believe me - it's not! It's a simple American roots music that can be broken down to these elements...". And yes, to some it's complicated but once you understand your arpeggio-harmony connection, follow the guide tones and add chromatic elaborations - you are there!

...ooops (one more edit)...

I want to explain my term I invented: "elaborated combined tetrachord modal improvisation".
Those 'jins' that constitute the maqam fenomenon are very much like Western music tetrachords that make up Western modal system especially if you depart from the Tonal Music and return to the Early European Music. You can combine the Wetern tetrachords in various combinations an get many more moods that we are used to in the Modern Major/Minior tonal System. That's how Early Western Church music worked.

That's for the second "...combined tetrachord modal improvisation" part.

When I added "elaborated..." I was of course meaning the microtonal variations that are used to further expand the tonal music palett (here 'tonal' refers to the frequency values of notes, not Tonal System). How clever that is - to go beyond strictly defined note values!!!
Much more freedom for a creative person!

DavidJE - 8-29-2014 at 12:18 AM

I'm not suggesting you should find a single teacher that you stick with forever. And a bad teacher can be worse than no teacher. My first teacher, although a nice guy, taught me some things incorrectly (strumming, micro tones, etc.), which had to be corrected by Mavrothi (who is an excellent teacher...here is his personal site, and his oud site, FYI). However, like I said, you can learn MUCH faster from a good teacher than you can on your own. A good teacher will know exactly what to tell you to do, what you should practice, when, etc.. You can benefit from the time they've put in, as they can stop you from making mistakes they made, or give you short cuts, etc.

I'm not sure I agree with you regarding your two points...the role of talent and living in the place the music came from.

From everything I've read, the determining factors as to how good you get at something (leaving aside the difference between people in the top 1-3% or so) are time, practice, and most important...HOW you practice. I recommend reading The Talent Code. Regarding how you practice, that's where a good/great teacher can make a HUGE difference.

As far as living in the place the music came from, check out this post I started earlier this year.

I agree with you that making something more complex than it needs to be is never good. Compared to western music though, at least in my opinion, Ottoman/Turkish music is far more complex. I think Arabic music is slightly less so, despite the overlap. This is due to elements like melodic direction of makams + micro tones and how they shift depending on what you are doing in a composition or improvisation. You can play good sounding music without those things, but understanding those things gives you, as you said, more creative freedom in the long run.

SV_T_oud - 8-29-2014 at 03:01 AM

David, all good points. Agree.

By the way I went through a description of many Arabic/Turkish music forms and realized that what I would be interested in in terms of oud playing is their improvisation, taqsim.
I like to improvise and don't like much written music and strict forms.

DavidJE - 8-29-2014 at 04:54 AM

I decided to start playing the oud after walking into a musical instrument shop while on vacation in Turkey, after listening to an employee improvise for about 45 minutes. I really hadn't listened to much Turkish or Arabic music at that point. But I was amazed by the guy's ability to improvise. I was/am pretty accustomed to hearing jazz and improvisation. I'm from New Orleans and lived in the French Quarter for much of my life, where hearing musicians improvising is a daily occurrence. (I played clarinet as a youngster, and wanted to do it professionally but didn't.) I loved the fretless and micro-tonal aspect of what the guy in Turkey was playing...the endless possibilities!

I'm not trying to argue with you at all here... But I think there is real value in learning written music in each makam. The written music gives you ideas, gives you a feel for different melodic progressions, and forces you to play within interesting non-western (sometimes asymmetrical) rhythms. If you only improvise, I think you might miss out on some discoveries...limiting your toolbox.

On the other hand, there's no good reason to do this other than for enjoyment. So if you just don't like learning written pieces at all, then you might as well not do it. But there are some might cool written pieces in this tradition.

EDIT: My first oud teacher told me that in order to get a real feel for a makam I should learn 15 or so pieces in it. Maybe less would be fine, but I think that would be a good thing...to see how different composers from different periods, with different styles, express the makam.

SV_T_oud - 8-29-2014 at 06:10 AM

David, sounds fine with me. BUT, is there such a thing as "A collection of short and easy pieces for beginners"? If you could point me to such a resource I'd appreciate that. I wouldn't like to collect pieces bit by bit. It's tedious.
I don't expect it to be exactly like I requested but very similar in nature.

If you mention it I understand you know what you are talking about. It sounds like you are not talking about an abstract thing.

I'm absolutely not against the scores. I don't have great ear and I often need to get the notes right for a piece so I have to read it untill I memorize anyway.

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE

...
I'm not trying to argue with you at all here... But I think there is real value in learning written music in each makam. The written music gives you ideas, gives you a feel for different melodic progressions, and forces you to play within interesting non-western (sometimes asymmetrical) rhythms. If you only improvise, I think you might miss out on some discoveries...limiting your toolbox.

On the other hand, there's no good reason to do this other than for enjoyment. So if you just don't like learning written pieces at all, then you might as well not do it. But there are some might cool written pieces in this tradition.

EDIT: My first oud teacher told me that in order to get a real feel for a makam I should learn 15 or so pieces in it. Maybe less would be fine, but I think that would be a good thing...to see how different composers from different periods, with different styles, express the makam.

Branko - 8-29-2014 at 07:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SV_T_oud

I like and learn Jazz guitar and ironically in this context on the TrueFire site there is a course by Fareed Haque that's called "Bebop Improv Survival Guide". He is Arabic ...

Not Arabic. Son of Pakistani father and Chilean mother.

SV_T_oud - 8-29-2014 at 08:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Branko

Quote: Originally posted by SV_T_oud

I like and learn Jazz guitar and ironically in this context on the TrueFire site there is a course by Fareed Haque that's called "Bebop Improv Survival Guide". He is Arabic ...

Not Arabic. Son of Pakistani father and Chilean mother.

Is that half-Arabic? :-)
Actually he considers himself Arabic - that's what he says in that course as a comment to some scale fragment, I bet it's an upper part of the harmonic minor (don't remember exactly).

DavidJE - 8-29-2014 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

BUT, is there such a thing as "A collection of short and easy pieces for beginners"? If you could point me to such a resource I'd appreciate that.

That's a great question, and something that would be very useful. I get most of my sheet music from Neyzen.com, but it's written for Turkish players and not Arabic, so the note "rast" is written as a G instead of as a D. Anyway, the "problem" is that the music is not organized in terms of "short and easy pieces for beginners", and I've never seen anything that is.

Again, a teacher would be good in that regard as they could suggest such pieces.

I've thought about making a website to cover this kind of thing myself. Maybe I'll do that at some point in the not too distant future.

SV_T_oud - 8-29-2014 at 11:49 AM

David, Just had a look at Neyzen.com archives. Here:
http://neyzen.com/ney_turkuler.html

There are plenty of sheet music for ney, not oud. That's not a problem though. What confused me is that when browsing the pdf's I didn't notice anything that would suggest microtonal notes in them. Am I missing anything?

I'm sure there are many things to learn for me but, anyway why do I see normal "Western Notation" and not 1/4-flats, 3/4-sharps, etc.?

Take for instance 'Eklemedir koca konak':
http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/05_turkuler/eklemedir_koca_konak.pdf

Looks like it's a piece in... not sure what "key" if it has any relation to the key signature at all. One flat, F-Maj or D-min but it lands on A very often and "cadences" on A as well.

edit: I just realized I'm contradicting myself. I shouldn't look at this piece from the Tonal music point of view. It must me in some maqam and be modal, not tonal. Correct?

Could you please give me a short analysis on this piece to get me started? What should I look for?

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE

Quote:

BUT, is there such a thing as "A collection of short and easy pieces for beginners"? If you could point me to such a resource I'd appreciate that.

DavidJE - 8-29-2014 at 12:07 PM

The sheet music is the same for both ney and oud.

The piece you linked to is in a maqam that does not use micro-tones, other than the fact that the # represents a 4 comma sharp. But in any case, that is not a makam I am familiar with.

Take a look at this very nice, well known piece in the makam Hicaz: http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/02_klasik_eserler/034_hicaz/hicaz_man... (YouTube version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj2RV1ofjFY)

You can see the b flat is a 4 comma flat (although typically played a little less flat than that). And, the sharps are 4 comma sharps instead of the typical western 4.5 comma sharp, and often played a little less sharp than that. You can see what the accidental notation represents here: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/notation.html

This is one reason a teacher would help a LOT. Turkish/Arabic notation is much less than perfect. The tone called "segah" for example, used in Rast, Ussak, Huseyni, etc., is always notated the same way as a "b" with a reverse flat, signifying "one comma flat". But it is played differently in each of the above three makams, and even differently depending on if you are ascending or descending in a piece. You can't know that by looking at the sheet music. You have to know it about each maqam. And it's not all that easy to hear at first, just by listening...if you are not very accustomed to it.

BTW, you can see the classic pieces by makam here: http://neyzen.com/ney_klasik_eserler.html

SV_T_oud - 8-30-2014 at 02:27 AM

David, it looks like you are right and the whole thing is much more complicated than it might seem at first.
Thank you for your primer guidence!

DavidJE - 8-30-2014 at 04:15 AM

No problem! I'm not an expert on this stuff by any means though. I've only been playing the oud for 1.5 years, although I play it for at least a couple hours per day, and I've bought all the books covering Ottoman/Turkish and Arabic music that I can find.

Partially because of language issues with my first teacher, it took me about a year just to begin to wrap my head around Turkish/Arabic music theory. It is NOT simple. But I wouldn't say it's *unnecessarily* complex. It's just that the music has tremendous depth and possibility. There are so many nuances, and the written theory and notation is limited.

Turkish music theory uses the comma system, with 53 tones per octave. Arabic theory uses the quarter tone system, with 24 tones per octave. Both are limited in terms of notation. With Turkish notation you can't notate all 53 tones, because there aren't symbols for them. With Arabic music, the tones are more nuanced and numerous than the 24 tone theory allows for.

Ornamentation is another can of worms, as I have yet to find any decent written material on it. Though, Navid, a forum member here, has a paid video course and lots of free blog posts/videos with some good instructional material here: http://www.oudforguitarists.com/. He focuses on Arabic music rather than Ottoman/Turkish.

In addition to all of that, you'll soon discover (if you haven't already) the difference between Arabic and Turkish notation. The Turks notate "rast" as G but the Arabs notate it as C, and so on. An Arabic C is actually a concert pitch C, but a Turkish G is very rarely a concert pitch G. There are different "tunings" used in Turkish music, which are really on-the-fly transpositions, so they play in almost any "key" but never change the way the music is written. This stuff alone is mind bending!

So...yeah...it's complicated! But it's worth getting into.

SV_T_oud - 8-30-2014 at 11:32 AM

Despite all complexity I can say after listening to a number of oud/baglama improvised pieces I can hear the logic of the melodic development in this music much better than in many Jazz improvisation numbers of the Bebop era and style where often musicians are limited to changes and "run" them accordingly. This MidEast music sounds to me more natural in its own idiom and outside the idiom, as it is.
I'm suprised this music is so deep. For some reason before my current interest in this music I used to think of it in terms of its commercial renditions where there is a simple motive that goes and goes round and round.
Right now I'm listening to Naseer Shamma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln7NHlyy9JU
and it's a good example of what I thought this music wasn't

DavidJE - 8-30-2014 at 01:59 PM

I haven't listened to nearly as many "Arabic oud" players as Turkish. For great current Turkish players, do a YouTube search for Munir Beken, Yurdal Tokcan, and Necati Celik. Different styles, but fantastic playing.

soltanov - 8-30-2014 at 06:47 PM

Hello , welcome to the forum,

A lot of Oud experts here gave you heaps of valuable recommendations, but allow me to give you my modest point of view, first as a beginner you shouldn't worry about songs (might be boring ) , mastering the maqams and the scales of the Oud is the most important step and it is the detriment factor for your future progress.

Ouds are different from other instruments , not to scare you , recently I started playing the accordion trust me it is a piece of cake compared to the Oud. If you want any help I can give you some advices for free on skype or I could recommend some videos on you-tube.

Like some members recommended listen to the traditional kings of Oud like al Sumbati , Abdel Wahab , Farid Al Al-Atrash , Saleeba Katrib , Wadeh el Safi , Mohamad al Moji , Baleegh Hamdi . from the new players I would recommend Simone Shaheen and Abadi El Jawhar . Although it is good to expose your self to different styles of Oud music , stay away from Nasir Shama and Charbel Rouhana ( at the risk of being criticized) because they don't offer a good sensitive middle-eastern music , they just present an entertaining and fast technique.

SV_T_oud - 8-31-2014 at 04:21 AM

Thanks guys for the good listening recommendations! I'll be more careful

Gocauo - 9-1-2014 at 03:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soltanov

If you want any help I can give you some advices for free on skype or I could recommend some videos on you-tube.

Not to hijack the thread, but I am another newcomer and am researching to see if an oud is in my future.

Not sure about SVT, but I would certainly appreciate any youtube recommendations you have!

SV_T_oud - 9-1-2014 at 11:27 AM

Since my last post I was thinking about my possible depth of penetration into the world of MidEast music with the "oud on my knee" and I came to a conclusion that I don't wan't to become "the oud maniac or junkee" in terms of strict following the rules of that music and learning everything. I realized that for me it would be better to get the general flavour of the music and then I would experiment by deriving my own style. Honestly I've never been a "maniac" of anything.

What I mean: if you search the WWW with a query similar to "most popular maqams" (sorry, "maqamat" and "makamar"

) you can get articles where around 10 or so maqams are listed as most widely used.
- OK, that's a good starting point - isn't it? Maybe if you "master" these 10 it's all you need? Sorry, speaking of myself here but why won't you think of it too if you don't consider yourself the purist?

Now, there is great similarity between Turkish and Arab maqams. Some purists will object but for me when I listen to one or another it sounds as "that kind of music". Well, actually here there is a point where I and the purist will split.
- What I mean: for instance, when a note is flat by 1/4 tone in the Arab music or otherwise 2 commas in Turkish most people will hardly notice the difference and what is more important, most amateur musicians as well. Provided this particular flat in some maqam is often not a "fixed" value but just a "recommendation" I see no reason to chase cents for most people.

Hard to believe? Actually, not. I know that many, many guitarists are helpless without a tuner. Many even buy tuning pedals at 100$. Ask them to tune up their guitar without a tuner and they will pack up and say you "Good Bye!".

edit: Mind you I don't suggest that the difference in Arab/Turkish music is only in fractions of the note values. Of course there is difference in every aspect of that music but I emphasized this to make a point that small variations will be much less important than the similarities compared to Western music.

On the differences in pitch: I don't want to call myself an expert "ear" guitar-tuner but I've learned to tune the guitar by ear with perfect results on a good day and a +-5% on a bad day. Often I even find the high "e" alsmost perfect in pitch on a de-tuned guitar.
You see, I would be a good candidat for chasing the "1/4 - to - 2 commas" difference but... I'll tell you the truth that my good guitar day is only one per week with the other 6 days showing +-5% difference (I always check... I have a tuner!).

Furthermore, I'm not particularly interested in finding "regional differences" in maqam interpretations, I'm more interested in finding similarities.

To round up my post I'd say that I prefer to take the synthetic approach to MidEast music rather than analytic.
How reasonable does it sound?

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to completely re-interpret the "MidEast music rules". I'm simply thinking of setting the reasonably feasable goals *for myself* provided the outcome is mostly "true" to the style with possible non-fatal errors that could easily be called "variations" rather then "rules violations" in a wide sense but limited to the large area where the "style" applies.

FilipHolm - 9-1-2014 at 01:27 PM

To me there is never any right or wrong way to play an instrument. I know a lot of people here may disagree, but as long as the performer puts his personality and emotions into the playing, it doesn't matter if it is the traditional way of playing or not.

The best way (for me) to practice Maqams is to listen to other players play Taqsim using them. I first tried to learn them simply by learning what "notes" were used, but quickly realized that there is so much more to them. A maqam always has its own mood and feel that makes it what it is. I'm sure you've alrady figured this out, but I just felt I needed to point that out for some reason. It is sort of Maqam theory 101, they are in no way just "scales" in the western sense.

I'm rambling, it's late here and I'm bored. Hope everything is going well for you in the oud world.

SV_T_oud - 9-2-2014 at 11:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FilipHolm

... Hope everything is going well for you in the oud world.

Hope so