Mike's Oud Forums

Mastering Çarpma

luan - 8-31-2014 at 06:58 PM

Hello

I've been kinda struggling to make my Çarpma technique sound good.
So far I think I've managed to make a single attack followed by a hammer-on and pull-off sound good.
But I still can't and don't understand how they use this technique in that common descending fashion. If I try to play it descending and fast, I can make it sound "similar", but I'm not sure of what i'm doing and it kinda sounds like that haha.
I've read that one of the tricks is to stop the string by barely touching it, rather than doing a full hammer-on.
I know a lot of people on this forum can play this technique in a beautiful way, so can anybody chime in and give some tips on how to develop this ornamentation?
Does string action affects the way you play it?

Thanks a lot, really!

luan - 9-7-2014 at 07:19 PM

Anyone?

franck leriche - 9-8-2014 at 02:39 AM

It's related to singing technique, and comes very easily under the fingers when you have it in your ear.

And yes, it's very different from one an instrument to another, if the instrument is build with "turkish playing" in mind it's way more easy, and sounds more powerful.

To practice, you may find a nice short phrase from a musician you like, listen to it many times, and try to do the same....listen again...try again...and so on.

John Erlich - 9-8-2014 at 09:50 AM

Hi Luan,

I Googled "Ud Çarpma" and found some videos, such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbPDeqa4OM

As Franck noted, this is primarily a Turkish technique. I suspect it's very hard to learn without an instructor, because it's a subtle technique that you have to really see up close.

I have a "stupid" question for you: Have you already mastered regular hammer-ons and pull-offs?

The reason I ask it that the Çarpma might be described as a "light, half-hammer-on" and requires a more gentle, subtle touch. I learned from Necati Çelik, a Turkish master, who gave us an excercise that was PHYSICALLY PAINFUL because of the subtlety of fingering hand control required. (I am primarily an Arabic-style player and don't use it often.) I don't try to teach a student Çarpma until they've mastered "regular" hammer-ons and pull-offs.

I imagine the technique might be adapted from other instruments, such as the Turkish bağlama. I don't speak Turkish, so I don't know what he's saying, but there are videos for such instruments that might be helpful, e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdC6ZoSFeLY

Peace out,
"Udi" John

luan - 9-8-2014 at 10:28 AM

Thanks John!

Would you please explain to me that exercise that Necati Celik gave you? I love the way he plays!

adamgood - 9-8-2014 at 04:17 PM

It's difficult to diagnose without hearing you play your ornament but here's my hunch.

You describe it as a hammer followed by a pull off after striking the string which in my opinion means you're not on the right track. It is an ornament that you should learn but not the first one. Here's an amazing two part exercise for you that I got from Yurdal Tokcan (credit where credit is due!). I work on this with my Macedonian tambura students at Balkan camp in the US and within a couple days they're understanding how to play ornaments and in most cases, actually do it...all hail Yurdal. I'm not saying this is his exercise but I got it from him. Ok here goes. By the way it's incredibly simple.

@@@
Exercise #1
1. 1st finger on 2nd string at the 2nd stop/fret. In Turkish tuning I get a concert B. 2nd finger half step above...C for me.

2. Play fingers 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 etc... plucking up and down starting slowly and speeding up gradually until you're blue in the face. With Yurdal it's something like 5 minutes.

3. Stay with me, we're really getting somewhere.

Exercise #2
1. Same finger locations

2. Pluck down 1st finger, hammer 2nd finger (don't pull off!!) again and again and again and again in time, tempo like you did in #1 but with your hammer on the C pitch.

3. same deal, start slowly, speed up and make your face turn blue. 5 minutes.
@@@

So simple is it. And you can do this with every finger combination ie, 2 and 3, 1 and 4 etc.

Make sure you're hammer is as loud and strong as can be. You're going for strength here, building muscles.

Exercise #3 comes tomorrow. Please ask questions if I'm vague or this is hard to understand. Sometimes the simplest exercises are difficult to put into words.

Adam

luan - 9-8-2014 at 04:42 PM

Thanks a lot Adam!!

I will try to record something today or tomorrow to show you how I can play it now, and you will tell me if it sounds good or it needs a lot of improvement.

Thanks again!

adamgood - 9-8-2014 at 07:10 PM

Do it Luan! I'm happy to listen.

Adam

SamirCanada - 9-9-2014 at 04:37 AM

Thanks Adam... any chance you could upload a quick video?

I am a visual learner. :D

luan - 9-11-2014 at 08:30 PM

Thanks Adam!!

I've been playing it like you said and now I finally don't have doubts about it.

I'm learning a new tune and will record it soon and post it so I can show you my improvement which has been possible thanks to you!

Thanks again!

luan - 9-28-2014 at 07:36 PM

I just realized it sounds MUCH better if I play it only using downstrokes instead of alternating. I can coordinate perfectly with alternate, but it sounds a lot better if I don't.
Does anybody have the same results?

Thanks!

DavidJE - 9-28-2014 at 10:25 PM

I have also noticed that...that it tends to sound better with only down-strokes for me. But with practice that is gradually changing and the gap is getting smaller and smaller. I think it would be ideal to be able to make it sound the same, because if you want to be able to do it very quickly (which leads to a different/blended sound than only using down-strokes), you need to be able to make it sound great between up and down strokes.

One thing I am noticing with time is that there is so much to just doing a down stroke followed by an up stroke. I start every practice now just alternating down and up strokes slowly, then adding a fingered note on the up stroke, and then adding a fingered note between the down and up stroke. Then I gradually speed that up, with every finger, with alternating fingers, up and down the strings, etc.

Jody Stecher - 9-29-2014 at 06:35 AM

The upstroke/hammer combination is difficult because it lacks the simplicity of the downstroke/hammer combination where there is a downward movement with both hands. I wonder if it is worth spending time on though. I wonder why a musician would want to play carpma using a right hand upstroke? Is total mastery desirable or possible? Have you ever heard or seen a player of Turkish oud play carpma with anything but a downstroke? I have not. Anything is possible but why spend hours or years breaking new ground when when the basic technique of downstroke and hammer is in the process of being learned and eventually mastered? Step 2 of Adam's second exercise begins "pluck down", not "down or up."

Carpma is an expression of emphasis. It is adamant. It is declarative and urgent. A down stroke contacts both members of a double course of oud strings. An upstroke normally contacts only the lower string in the pair (unless the angle of the plectrum rather drastically altered with each upstroke). So the downstroke is more suited for declarative urgent adamant playing.

DavidJE - 9-29-2014 at 06:55 AM

Perhaps what I think Carpma is is not actually correct. Maybe it's something different.

Is Mavrothi not using Carpma in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_kZMnjRwmk

He is using it with upward and downward strokes.

It looks like Hakan is also using it with upward strokes in this video on Carpma: http://vimeo.com/36449509

luan - 9-29-2014 at 08:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
The upstroke/hammer combination is difficult because it lacks the simplicity of the downstroke/hammer combination where there is a downward movement with both hands. I wonder if it is worth spending time on though. I wonder why a musician would want to play carpma using a right hand upstroke? Is total mastery desirable or possible? Have you ever heard or seen a player of Turkish oud play carpma with anything but a downstroke? I have not. Anything is possible but why spend hours or years breaking new ground when when the basic technique of downstroke and hammer is in the process of being learned and eventually mastered? Step 2 of Adam's second exercise begins "pluck down", not "down or up."

Carpma is an expression of emphasis. It is adamant. It is declarative and urgent. A down stroke contacts both members of a double course of oud strings. An upstroke normally contacts only the lower string in the pair (unless the angle of the plectrum rather drastically altered with each upstroke). So the downstroke is more suited for declarative urgent adamant playing.


I've seen Necati Celik, Yurdal Tokcan and a lot of other players always alternate when they play carpma.

Jody Stecher - 9-29-2014 at 09:06 AM

OK, the literal meaning of çarpma is beat or strike. So in one sense a simple "hammer-on" is literally çarpma. But in the context of Turkish and Turkish influenced music the ornament identified as çarpma seems to be mostly played as a series of repeated downstrokes. Mavrothi himself can best answer as to whether he is playing çarpma in that video. I would say it is a simple hammer, or slur. But I may be making a distinction where none exists. My first impression was that this slur (two notes on one stroke) is being used as means of playing two notes that are part of the melody. But at full speed it does seem that the hammers are ornamental. ( Rightly or wrongly, I have thought of çarpma as being ornamenal with the hammer being a rapid "interruption" of the melody note. ). So maybe there is upward çarpma after all. I had not seen it before.

Yes, Hakan seems to be using it in both up and down strokes.

I just now watched random Youtube videos of Necati Çeliki and Yurdal Tockan. Necati Çelik goes faster than my brain does and I'm not sure. In the case of Yurdal Tockan, so far, every video I've investigated has only successive downstrokes when playing çarpma .

DavidJE - 9-29-2014 at 09:12 AM

The hammers that Mavrothi is playing are not part of the melody. They are "extras"...ornaments. At least, based on the score and on my understanding. But I'll send him a link to this thread and he can answer for himself. :)

Jody Stecher - 9-29-2014 at 09:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
The hammers that Mavrothi is playing are not part of the melody. They are "extras"...ornaments. At least, based on the score and on my understanding. But I'll send him a link to this thread and he can answer for himself. :)


you are right. Read my edited post.

mavrothis - 9-29-2014 at 09:27 AM

Hi,

I am not a Turkish speaker, but musically speaking, I consider carpma to be describing a left hand hammer on ornament, regardless of picking direction. Sometimes successive down strokes work best, other times alternate picking makes more sense, depending on how much you want to stress the hammer ons and how fast they are.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any real reason to differentiate it according to picking direction other than to help guide someone in the picking possibilities within a specific (ornamented) passage.

Thanks,

Mavrothi


Jody Stecher - 9-29-2014 at 10:03 AM

Thanks, Mavrothi. Thanks to this conversation spanning continents and time zones, I have revised my idea and expanded my concept of çarpma in oud playing.
Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis  
Hi,

I am not a Turkish speaker, but musically speaking, I consider carpma to be describing a left hand hammer on ornament, regardless of picking direction. Sometimes successive down strokes work best, other times alternate picking makes more sense, depending on how much you want to stress the hammer ons and how fast they are.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any real reason to differentiate it according to picking direction other than to help guide someone in the picking possibilities within a specific (ornamented) passage.

Thanks,

Mavrothi


Jason - 9-30-2014 at 08:33 AM

Here are two videos that make the technique a little easier to see. These videos aren't musical but do a good job of breaking down how to approach practicing the technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EUxTO981eE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HV6PiZnamo

Jason - 10-12-2014 at 06:05 AM

Another helpful video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbPDeqa4OM