Mike's Oud Forums

Been picking oud like a guitar!

Lysander - 9-5-2014 at 12:12 AM

By the looks of things I've been picking incorrectly for over a year! I'm in Turkey at the moment and my father in law asked me to play a nihavend longa. On observing me he pointed out I was only using downstrokes and no upstrokes! He said this was "very worrying" and that I'm doing twice as much work than I need to. I am now in the process of rectifying this. Progress is being made. My degree starts in three weeks so it's just as well I found out in time!

I don't expect my corrected form to be 100% by then, but 75% or so I hope. I wonder what else I may need to correct. Posture seems ok. Time for lessons cant come soon enough! The curse of moving from rhythm guitar and thinking it was the same, I suppose.

Brian Prunka - 9-5-2014 at 04:12 AM

The bigger thing to worry about coming from rhythm guitar is which parts of your arm you are using. the main motion should be a rotation of your forearm, rather than an lateral motion from your elbow or shoulder. moving from string to string should involve your wrist.

Lysander - 9-8-2014 at 11:52 AM

Indeed Brian, thank you. You can't strum an oud like you can a guitar, and I am trying to more and more practice the ethos that "it's all in the wrist". I am gradually seeing that using upstrokes and downstrokes can be of huge benefit, but it will take some time to get very confident with it.

Brian Prunka - 9-8-2014 at 01:19 PM

It's not in the wrist—the wrist is mainly for switching quickly switching between strings. The main plucking motion is in rotating your forearm.

I.e., if you pick a note on the 3rd course, it is the forearm that rotates, if you then are alternating between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses, you will also move your wrist in addition to rotating your forearm.

Jody Stecher - 9-8-2014 at 01:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
It's not in the wrist—the wrist is mainly for switching quickly switching between strings. The main plucking motion is in rotating your forearm.

I.e., if you pick a note on the 3rd course, it is the forearm that rotates, if you then are alternating between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses, you will also move your wrist in addition to rotating your forearm.


A respectful question: I do use mostly wrist. (and from watching you just now on several Nashaz videos you appear to do that as well). And I don't rotate my hand or my forearm on the downstroke. (and I don't see you doing that either). How is it possible to pluck both members of a double string course if the arm rotates? Wouldn't that result in a stroke that moves as much *out* as it moves down? On the upstroke I sometimes do a small rotation to catch both strings in the pair. But usually not.

Lysander - 9-9-2014 at 05:47 AM

To me the correct motion is a mixture of forearm and wrist. Even playing "air oud" now one can see it. The forearm rotates about 90 deg, and seeing as the wrist is bent, the risha moves up and down accordingly. But the forearm is doing most of the work. At least I think so.

Brian Prunka - 9-9-2014 at 06:18 AM

Hi Jody,

It may appear to you that I am mainly using my wrist, but I'm not. Picking mechanics are complicated, and in performance of actual pieces one is almost always using several techniques simultaneously or in rapid succession; in addition, a viewer may be unable to distinguish cause and effect. Even many players are unaware or misperceive the mechanics of their own playing.

Because of camera angles, it is difficult to distinguish between forearm rotation and wrist movement, because when your forearm rotates your wrist necessarily moves and forearm rotation is nearly invisible when seen from the front, especially if the shirt has long sleeves. However, this is much different than playing from the wrist. I've worked on this with several students and it is very clear when working in person, and the sound produces is also clearly different.
Wrist motion is necessary when switching from one string to another, and since most playing involves a lot of that, there is genuine wrist motion when playing, but it is not in the service of the stroke itself and it is in combination with the usual forearm motion.

I didn't mention it above, but there is a third kind of motion, which I can only explain as being generated by the thumb muscles, which comes into play in very fast passages and in subtle articulations. This is a more advanced technique and I've found it's most important to master the main forearm stroke first before worrying about the thumb. This motion sometimes also causes the wrist to move in response to the motion of the thumb, but again the wrist in not causing the motion.

Any given passage of actual music is likely to use some combination of all three movements, which could help give the false impression that the wrist is doing a lot of the work.

Not that my technique is flawless by any means, especially in a music club sometimes technique suffers from trying to compete volume-wise with a band, etc. But from spending so much time observing Simon Shaheen up close, from my lessons with various great oud players, from careful investigation and trial and error, and actually working with students and seeing the results of different techniques, I am confident of the general outline I've presented here. There are a number of fine details that vary from person to person due to differences in people's bodies and to the desired effect, but these three pieces seem substantially the same in every accomplished oudist I've seen.
In focusing on these parts, my own technique and that of my students has consistently improved, and maybe even more importantly, in most players with obvious technical difficulties, one or more of these aspects of technique was conspicuously underdeveloped.

Of course, this is just my perspective, I am open-minded and am also constantly learning new things and refining my understanding.

Jody Stecher - 9-9-2014 at 09:25 AM

Thank you, Brian, for such a thorough reply. I still don't understand how the forearm can rotate without the risha moving away from the strings. I will experiment and find out for myself. You may be right about a player (in this case *me*) not knowing the full details of what he is doing. I think I need to play while looking at my right arm in a mirror.

What I *think* I'm doing: By using my wrist as the principle hinge I am able to use gravity as the prime force on my downstroke. If I used my elbow as a hinge I'd have to use more muscle and I'd have to move a lot of arm bone, a lot of weight. If I *rotate* the arm, counterclockwise for down, clockwise for up, only one string of the pair is touched, I am fighting gravity, and I cannot play a rest stroke.

I need to give all of this some more study.

Brian Prunka - 9-9-2014 at 12:33 PM

If you are correctly positioning your arm, the rotation does not fight gravity but works with it. You shouldn't be using your elbow as a hinge—your elbow joint should be stationary, except slight movements to adjust arm position when crossing strings.

Try this exercise: hold your arm out with your elbow bent at 90° and with your palm facing down. now turn your palm to face up without moving your upper arm or elbow. now turn your palm to face down again. It should feel kind of like winding up a spring and letting it go again . . . this is the basis of the downward rest stroke.

From your description, I don't understand what is happening with you, but I can say that what I am talking about uses minimal energy (much less than using the wrist as a hinge) and allows you to cleanly play both strings in a course as one, and results in a strong and consistent rest stroke.

Jody Stecher - 9-9-2014 at 03:51 PM

Lovely! I just tried the exercise and now I can see that, as I suspected , have already been using your technique for years. Every time I play an upstroke or reposition the hand for the next of a series of consecutive downstrokes I can see my palm (not facing all the way to the sky of course) before the stroke is made.

Because my wrist is bent (like an oud peghead ,but not so extreme at all) when I play, the hand and forearm move together. The only way I could move from the wrist without moving the forearm would be with a wrist that moves only from side to side (like a broken oud peghead). This picking movement I do is very much the same as yours, Brian. But it presents itself to me as originating in the wrist but not moving from side to side.

Clear as mud? Well, at least I understand it!

Brian Prunka - 9-9-2014 at 04:23 PM

Since actual wrist oscillation is used to move in and out of the strings for crossing strings and for certain other aspects of playing, it strikes me as confusing to consider the forearm rotation as originating in the wrist. To some extent, you could consider this merely a matter of perception, but I've found that differences of perception can make technical considerations more complicated than necessary. I think of things in terms of muscle groups. Imagine that you couldn't move your wrist independently of your forearm—the forearm rotation would remain the same. This is why I don't regard it as originating in the wrist—the muscles that control the motion are in the arm, not the wrist.

Lysander - 9-14-2014 at 08:10 AM

Here's a short video of my trying to improve my right-hand technique. It's a little stuttery since this was one of my first attempts. But hopefully the principle is correct.

http://youtu.be/dy4UQIpGzP0

Jody Stecher - 9-14-2014 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  
Here's a short video of my trying to improve my right-hand technique. It's a little stuttery since this was one of my first attempts. But hopefully the principle is correct.

[url]http://youtu.be/dy4UQIpGzP0
[/url]

The bent thumb looks like it may be pulling on your wrist. Playing this way may eventually cause injury. Unless the first two joints of your right thumb are at right angles when your hand is at rest, you are likely to find it is easier to play with an unbent thumb. And you are likely to get better sound with less effort as well. Study and emulate the thumb positions of the greats. Youtube has abundant examples.

Lysander - 9-14-2014 at 09:41 AM

Very useful advice indeed Jody! I didn't even realise I was doing that wrongly with the thumb. Looking at a video of Nasser Houari I can see that his is straight. I will endeavour to emulate this, thank you for pointing it out. In this video I noticed I seem to be putting a little too much effort into things, yes, I have 'relaxed' more since.

SamirCanada - 9-14-2014 at 01:37 PM

http://youtu.be/8i1n60lE-bs

Why not learn from the legend himself. Barely any wrist movement there, straight thumb... Many other nuances that can be noted aswell.

Brian Prunka - 9-14-2014 at 02:41 PM

I agree with Jody about the bent thumb, it should be pretty straight, and yours looks like it is causing you to use a kind of guitarlike picking.

Thanks Samir for the inspiration!

SamirCanada - 9-14-2014 at 03:53 PM

Most welcome Brian, that's what the same Oud sounds like today...
Sounded pretty good when new I would say!

http://youtu.be/9SINA5Dd8Fc

Lucky mofo... Gets to play on that oud

Jody Stecher - 9-14-2014 at 09:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
http://youtu.be/8i1n60lE-bs

Why not learn from the legend himself. Barely any wrist movement there, straight thumb... Many other nuances that can be noted aswell.


This must be one powerful video, Samir. Every time I click on the link it causes my web browser (Safari) to crash. After 3 times I gave up.

SamirCanada - 9-15-2014 at 04:23 AM

Jody I also have a god forsaken Mac computer. I installed google chrome as the main browser and I have noticed a significant performance upgrade especially on youtube and other video streaming pages.

I tried the link again, it works well for me.

Jason - 9-25-2014 at 06:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
Most welcome Brian, that's what the same Oud sounds like today...
Sounded pretty good when new I would say!

http://youtu.be/9SINA5Dd8Fc

Lucky mofo... Gets to play on that oud


Even with a cheap camera mic you can hear the power that oud can put out. Awesome!