Mike's Oud Forums

modern oud sound

juju - 9-10-2014 at 09:04 AM

Several times, I noticed that modern ouds have very rich harmonics and that they are full of sustain... I was wondering why.
I have the impression that modern oud lutherie try to reach a kind of perfection, each piece of wood is cut perfectly, etc ...(the modern machines allow a very good precision in the production of the oud.)
In the other hand, I noticed that the old traditionnal arabic sound is not very sustained, the harmonics are not so clear... I have the impression that the beauty of the old arabic sound come from a lot of imperfections in the making...
All of this is just a personal feeling and I don't have any knowledge in lutherie. As I'm not a specialist in oud, I wanted to have your comments.
Best,
Juju.

bulerias1981 - 9-11-2014 at 06:21 PM

That's a good concept you've mentioned. The modern oud sound caters to a new style and approach to playing oud. It was a good observation to notice that Arabic ouds don't have sustain (lets call it echo for now). The intention is an instrument that is resonant, punchy, with no echo. That suited the music being played in the old Arabic recordings. Also the oud acted along side the percussion. It was played percussively and followed the rhythms. It had to cut through. A lot of times, the workmanship was rough and crude. Is that a reason why it resulted in that sound? Partially perhaps. But Arab makers definitely wanted to produce instruments which were proper for their music, or maybe that's all they knew.

Just like the evolution in music, luthiers tend to keep up with the times and cater to the music that's being played. It's better for business as well! I heard a story from a friend in Lebanon, that Lebanese maker Fadi Matta was approached some years ago to make a floating bridge oud, and he refused. I don't know what happened, but after some time, he clearly gave in, and has been making many floating bridge ouds. You can say hes a floating bridge champion! Does he like that sound, or is doing it to cater to the "new" style, I don't know. But as I said before, definitely good for business!

I choose to make traditional style fixed bridge ouds. It's a matter of my taste as a player as well. I basically make ouds that I like and hope others will like that too. I'm also trying to push the limits on the "older" style ouds. Trying to make them more resonant, but without compromising the tonal qualities of that style. I will make anyone anything to order, and I have done floating bridge, but my heart is with the old sound.. call me a romantic!

majnuunNavid - 9-13-2014 at 10:26 AM

This has been on my mind for a while. It started when I started using drop F tuning, that is, (low to high) CFADgc as apposed to G tuning (CGADgc) which we use in Persian music mostly.

When I started using drop F tuning, I hated the sound. All I could hear was that blasted F overtones and it drove me crazy for a while. I think I have become used to it now, and I write music for drop F tuning so it suits my style better now.

In my comparison of Persian music and Arabic music I have observed that the overtones are critical to create the desired effect and to "sound" Persian. Most Persian instruments like Tar and Setar and limited to three courses which limits the amount of sympathetic resonance and overtones, and keep only the ones we want to hear.

Consider Arabic music which uses even more maqamat than Persian music and modulates more often. The Oud has 5 to 6 courses so the sympathetic potential is greater. An Instrument which creates less undesirable overtones would be preferable would it not? It is to me. I think this is an inescapable quality of modal music.

So now, I long more for that punchy, rounder, older traditional sound. But taste changes from time to time.

jdowning - 9-14-2014 at 04:59 AM

The modern trend for oud and classical guitar is for louder instruments - loud enough to fill a concert hall seems to be the objective - hence the fairly recent development of the floating bridge oud as well as fundamental changes in guitar acoustic design . Instrument electronic amplification also seems to be the norm for those seeking even greater loudness. We live in noisy times where 'dead silence' (if such is now even possible) is uncomfortable for many.

The oud, lute guitar and related instruments were never originally intended to be heard by large audiences - just by relatively small intimate groups in quiet surroundings where the tonal subtleties of the instruments could be better appreciated. The lute tradition was broken in Europe around the middle of the 18th C when the instrument fell out of fashion so today we do not know exactly how a lute of the 16th/17th C once sounded - hence efforts to recreate the old sound by not only replicating surviving lutes structurally but by attempting to replicate the original strings (although no strings have survived).
Less so with the (relatively) unbroken oud traditions. This being the case, the basic sound of the Arabic oud must have been passed on - essentially unchanged - through the memory of generations who grew up with the instrument - that is until around the end of the 19th C when wound bass strings on silk core became the norm and then in the 1960's when synthetic nylon replaced traditional gut.

The all plain gut/silk stringing that was once the norm is lacking overtones in the bass strings (compared to modern wound strings) so do not have that metallic ring and sustain of today's wound basses. Many lute players who use wound basses prefer the sound of old strings that have lost much of their brightness and are less overpowering in sound volume.

For those who can afford it and who seek the old Arabic sound perhaps the answer is to revert to all gut stringing or at least gut with wound basses on a silk core for oud designs dating to the late 19th C?
Although strings are at the root of the sound of an instrument, acoustic design is, of course, important in amplifying acoustically the string vibrations and tones where they can be heard. A poorly conceived oud is likely to be much less efficient in this respect than one hand built by an experienced luthier. Undecorated, plain workmanship in an instrument does not necessarily translate into a bad sounding instrument.


juju - 9-16-2014 at 01:46 AM

Thanks for your replies.

Bulerias81, I agree with you when you mention that the luthiers have to follow the taste of musicians...at least for buisness reasons.
I noticed that many oud players are now strongly influenced by guitar players... today oud players explore chords and arpegios, alternate picking ... that might be a reason why short scales oud (58.5cm) are now common is arab country, the short scale offer more playbility. Also high tension strings are often used, they give more resonance to the oud and are suitable for fast movements... unfortunately what make the specificity and the beauty of the oud timbre doesn't seem to be compatible with all of that ...

Antoine - 9-16-2014 at 12:38 PM

It's an interesting subject!
I believe that some Oud makers before were very precise as well, we can't judge the sound of an instrument that was made 80 years ago.
The sound of an old Oud totally changed (the taste of wine we make today will be very different in few years).
I agree that the taste of musicians changed as well but is it because of the instrument??? not only.
I suggest that we ask experts for this subject

Alkindi - 9-17-2014 at 04:01 AM

i think modern ouds are trying to sound like guitars! Modern strings play a big role here too i think.

nice topic

Oud Freak - 10-2-2014 at 10:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  


I heard a story from a friend in Lebanon, that Lebanese maker Fadi Matta was approached some years ago to make a floating bridge oud, and he refused. I don't know what happened, but after some time, he clearly gave in, and has been making many floating bridge ouds. You can say hes a floating bridge champion! Does he like that sound, or is doing it to cater to the "new" style, I don't know. But as I said before, definitely good for business!


Eh Mazbout :)

Oud Freak - 10-2-2014 at 10:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alkindi  
I think modern ouds are trying to sound like guitars! Modern strings play a big role here too i think.


Yeah sure new strings contribute to embellish the sound of a good oud.

Once someone told me that for an very oriental sound, choice of strings is the only name of the game.

However there is a counter example : during the last two years I have tried the sound several Nazih Ghadban ouds. Some of them had pyramid lute strings, others pyramid orange label, and occasional kurschner and Labellas. I was surprised to notice that all of them, in spite of the sustain and the rich harmonics, sounded extremely شرقي oriental. Their harmonics, while being rich, were at the same discreet and not too dominant. Incredibly balanced!