Mike's Oud Forums

Zenne oud string gauges

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 05:50 AM

I got my oud and it turned out... to be Zenne, the smaller version of the thing. Actually I was getting the full size but the seller made a mistake. Never mind, I accept it.

The string length, i.e. the "scale" of the Zenne is 55 cm as opposed to more or less the middle of the road 60 cm of the full sized oud.

My question(s) is this:
- Do I understand correctly that most of the commercial string sets for oud (D'Addario, Labella, you name it...) are designed with the full scale = 60 cm in mind?

- Should I consider a custom set of string gauges for my Zenne? I assume the strings should be "thicker".

- Can someone recommend the string gauges for my 55 cm Zenne?

I understand the standard available string sets will be "soft" for the 55 cm scale and the strings will have too much slack.

SamirCanada - 9-18-2014 at 06:14 AM

Zenne is a small (woman version) of a Turkish oud.

63cm is the very old arabic length, 61.5cm is the classical arabic length, 60cm is the modern classical arabic length, 58.5 is Turkish length and Iraqi oud length,

55cm... its no middle of the road my friend. Its really short!

you can probably use turkish strings and tune it to turkish pitch but for arabic pitch you will need some pretty thick strings. Maybe the high tension Aquila Nylgut would be ok on your oud at standard arabic tuning.

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 06:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
...
55cm... its no middle of the road my friend. Its really short!


Yes, that's what I said. I said 60 cm is middle of the road.
I consider Zenne not a 'woman' size but a 'short scale size'.
Have you ever seen a "woman " Stratocaster?

Some women have larger fingers than men.

SamirCanada - 9-18-2014 at 06:33 AM

ah my bad, I though you were refering to 55cm as middle of the road... carry on :D

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 06:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
ah my bad, I though you were refering to 55cm as middle of the road... carry on :D


Yes, I mean "short scale" is generally not a problem... if you know how to apply it properly! ;)

Brian Prunka - 9-18-2014 at 07:23 AM

Quote:
My question(s) is this:
- Do I understand correctly that most of the commercial string sets for oud (D'Addario, Labella, you name it...) are designed with the full scale = 60 cm in mind?


Commercial Turkish sets (D'addario, Labella OU80, Pyramid 706, etc.) are designed for 58.5 cm and Turkish tuning
Commercial Arabic sets (LaBella OU80A, Pyramid #650/652/665) vary. The Labella is made for high f' tuning and the typical range of 58-60cm for those ouds. Pyramid sets state that they are made for 61cm but in my opinion are probably best at 59-60cm.

Quote:

- Should I consider a custom set of string gauges for my Zenne? I assume the strings should be "thicker".

Yes, you would need a custom set, although it's possible a heavy set like the Pyramid #665 might work . . . it would be best to check the tension beforehand.
Quote:

- Can someone recommend the string gauges for my 55 cm Zenne?

You can send me a message through my oudstrings site below and I'd be happy to assist.
Quote:

I understand the standard available string sets will be "soft" for the 55 cm scale and the strings will have too much slack.

Yes, most likely.

Though you didn't ask, I would recommend returning the oud and getting a full-size oud instead if possible.

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 07:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
...
Though you didn't ask, I would recommend returning the oud and getting a full-size oud instead if possible.


Brian, thank you for all your comments and suggestions, I quoted the most sensitive part. Unfortunately, it's not a good option for me due to a number of reasons.

Am I in real trouble with this oud? If I tune it a semitone higher, for instance, will it work for me?

Brian Prunka - 9-18-2014 at 08:12 AM

It would probably respond better to the higher tuning . . . but the only way is to try it and see.

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 08:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
It would probably respond better to the higher tuning . . . but the only way is to try it and see.


OK, got it, will see...

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 08:55 AM

OK, I'm starting to feel like I got an outcast of the oud World.
Anyone else is playing these short-scale ouds or am I going to be the pioneer?

Brian Prunka - 9-18-2014 at 11:02 AM

This is basically a child-size oud so, no it is not common among adult players.

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 12:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
This is basically a child-size oud so, no it is not common among adult players.


Brian, would it be reasonable then for me to approach it as a "Jumbo Udkulele"? :)

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 12:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oudistcamp  
I have a few zenne ouds, all 57cm string length.
Try returning it, even if it is just to double check if the seller sincerely made a mistake or not....


Returning the oud will cost me a lot.
Why is it so bad? Can it be setup properly to make the best out of it?
I like it and for my smaller hands I think it's even better in the first position. I can hardly play on a 24.75" scale guitar in the first position without tension. I only start feeling comfortable in the 5th position.

By the way, I have no way to tell if the seller did it on purpose or not. First they tried to deny the fact that the oud is Zenne. I even sent them a scanned picture of a sticker from the oud that was reading 'Zenne' but they told me it didn't prove anything - "The sticker is just the sticker!" - they told me.
I found a way to prove them my point and they said "Well, then it is what you say". But, they didn't admit their mistake directly. Instead they began to tell me how bad their life is :)

They offered me to return it but as I told you above it's not reasonable because it will cost a lot and who knows what else will hapen to it on the way back?
It was delivered overseas in a paper-thin carton box and I could feel the oud inside the "box" by touching it! It came undamaged only by pure luck. It couldn't actually - no way. I don't know why it came in one piece.

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 12:45 PM

The eBay seller is respectable with 100% feedback and rather high score. I can't reveal their identity for a personal reason that goes beyond the discussion on this board.
Maybe they did it on "semi-purpose" but I believe they made a mistake. I have a good idea why they could make this particular mistake and why they didn't want to admit it. They had a reason to not trust themself.
Actually there is some disorganization in their sales-to-shipping department that I detected. That was probably the cause of the mistake.
Once again, I like the instrument. It just needs to be setup properly.

SV_T_oud - 9-18-2014 at 12:53 PM

By the way, I measured up the scale more correctly and it's 55.5 cm, nearly 56! ;)

SV_T_oud - 9-19-2014 at 03:16 AM

Can anyone please clarify for me the oud string tension requirements?

In this older thread:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13176

fernandraynaud suggests at 11:39 PM that "Normal tension on an oud string is around 2.5-3.5 kg... But 4 kg is already a lot".

If this is true then it contradicts to what most standard oud string sets contain. For instance, the J95 D'Addario oud set according to the official data sheet applies much higher tension with each individual string:
http://www.daddario.com/DADProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=3769&pro...

According to the D'Addario chart the tension applied per string is in 4.8 to 8.6 kg range. How is that possible compared to the average 3 kg?

Jody Stecher - 9-19-2014 at 05:53 AM

D'Addario's chart would be accurate were their strings actually tuned up to the bizarre pitches that also appear on the chart. D'Addario has been told several times that "sol" in Turkey does not mean G but rather indicates D, a fourth lower. In spite of this they continue to provide customers with misinformation. This set of strings when tuned a fourth lower than indicated on the chart are quite safe for Turkish tuning(s) on a shorter scale oud and a fifth lower for "C" Arabic tuning on a longer scale oud.

Brian Prunka - 9-19-2014 at 05:58 AM

Jody is correct.

Jody Stecher - 9-19-2014 at 07:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Jody is correct.


It*does* happen from time to time.

SV_T_oud - 9-19-2014 at 09:05 AM

OK, that was a bad example. Let's take then the Pyramid Turkish Oud Strings #706 from the Brian's online store:
http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...

The highest string tension in the set is 5.5 kg. It's well above the 3.5 kg "safe" limit as indicated in the fernandraynaud's post.

Who is right?
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
D'Addario's chart would be accurate were their strings actually tuned up to the bizarre pitches that also appear on the chart. D'Addario has been told several times that "sol" in Turkey does not mean G but rather indicates D, a fourth lower. In spite of this they continue to provide customers with misinformation. This set of strings when tuned a fourth lower than indicated on the chart are quite safe for Turkish tuning(s) on a shorter scale oud and a fifth lower for "C" Arabic tuning on a longer scale oud.

Brian Prunka - 9-19-2014 at 10:36 AM

Well, Fernand was being a bit conservative with respect to what is "safe" — 4Kg is more of a typical safe limit for a modern instrument. Antique instruments should generally be approached with caution regarding the tension . . . one should err on the side of lower tension.

But the bigger picture is that what really matters is total tension, not the tension of individual strings.
The tension of the #706 set works out to an average tension of 4.2Kg—on the high side, but not totally unreasonable. It is higher than I would personally use, but I know many players using these without issue. The tension also appear to be calculated using 59cm rather than the more common 58.5cm so it is likely a slight overestimate.

SV_T_oud - 9-19-2014 at 11:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
...
But the bigger picture is that what really matters is total tension, not the tension of individual strings.


I was thinking about this also.

SV_T_oud - 9-20-2014 at 03:02 AM

You know, guys, I want to share with you my experience with this Zenne oud.

The more I get familiar with it the more I understand that the mistake (whether intentional or not) that the seller made is for good, not for bad! I have overall smaller hands and I can imagine how uncomfortable I would feel with a full-sized oud. I even have difficulties to "embrace" this smaller oud (it's 18 cm deep by 35 cm wide by 65 cm nut to the back of the bowl) and I would imagine I could have big diffilculty to proceed with the big-body oud.

So, maybe for some people like me I would actually recommend this type of oud to start with regardless of what some "guru oud snobs" say against it.

mavrothis - 9-20-2014 at 08:24 PM

Hi there,

From what you are saying, this string length is just fine for you.

Why not contact a luthier who has made ouds (and therefore strung them successfully) for string gauge and brand recommendations?

This oud with 56 cm string length was made by my friend Tasos Theodorakis, for another friend of mine (Nikolaos Rondelis) and sounds great:

Small scale oud video

Good luck!

mav

mavrothis - 9-20-2014 at 08:40 PM

Wow, and here is one by Tasos Theodorakis that is with only a 50 cm string length (played by Ross Daly, who is a tall guy)!

Ross Daly with small oud video

Tasos should definitely have some good recommendations for you about strings.

Take care,

mav