Mike's Oud Forums

Perfect strings for arabic F.Turunz reduced price oud!

danieletarab - 10-1-2014 at 03:56 PM

Hello lads!
During these last months, I have been in contact with other lucky owners of Faruk Turunz reduced price arabic ouds.
All of us agree on the beauty and perfect craftmanship of the instrument.
But some of us were not completely satisfied. I don't want to open the old topic about difference between arabic and turkish sound, but to put it there simple, we didn't feel it to be enough"arabic" (all of us are intermediate, and not very experts on ouds).

Few weeks ago, following the suggestion of some of you, I put LA BELLA arabic strings (the ones with additional ff, which I didn't use; I tune in C).
Now the oud is pretty different. Much more tension, brighter treeble, slighty higher action, and much much more "arabic"!! And moreover, the problem of little buzzes on the D string completely disappeared.

That made me think that "the problem" with reduced price arabic ouds, is the string's lenght (58.50 cm). As far as I know, 58.50 cm, is the lenght of turkish ouds, and of iraqi ouds, or any other model tuned in F.

If you tune in C, and you have a 58.50 cm oud, you may not get the right tension, because arabic sets are thought to be put on 60, 61 or 62 cm ouds, and turkish sets will sound too loose.

In the end, It seems to me that among the things that make an oud more arabic than turkish, there are STRING TENSION, and ACTION, and that these last features, are maybe the most important (togheter with bracing and soundboard thickness).
The reason why Faruk turunz reduced price ouds may seem to be not very "arabic", could be just a matter of string tension! :)


Thank you for your attention, and forgive me (and eventually correct me!) if you think that I am wrong!





farukturunz - 10-2-2014 at 08:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by danieletarab  

The reason why Faruk turunz reduced price ouds may seem to be not very "arabic", could be just a matter of string tension! :)








Hello danieltarab. I am thankful to your contribution. I need to revise my approach to soundboard construction, taking into account the effect of the difference in the string properties.
The whole governing phylosophy of my soundboard designing approach is very simple: It was developed for the goal of organizing some well distributed resonance areas on the soundboard. Of course by this technique I am able to construct soundboards which produce well balanced sound. From the fist open string to the last fingered point of the last string the Reduced Price Ouds produce steady sound. I mean every not is heard very similarly. The taste is a different matter of course. And no doubt the soundboard is prompted by the natural characteristics (overtone composition) of the strings. Each string's natural features are different, obviously.
I will concentrate on this subject. Thank you again.

DavidJE - 10-2-2014 at 09:22 AM

Quote:
no doubt the soundboard is prompted by the natural characteristics (overtone composition) of the strings. Each string's natural features are different, obviously.


This is an interesting topic for me, as I'm a relative beginner and have only tried two brands of strings on my oud designed for Turkish tuning, and one on my oud designed for Arabic tuning. I tried the Küschner strings that came on the ouds, and some MusiCaravan strings on my Turkish oud. I liked both, but thought they both sounded somewhat similar. I can't say I noticed a substantial difference between the two. Next, I'm about to try the "custom" Pyramid lute strings.

Anyway, to Faruk and anyone else, do you feel that different brands of strings and tensions create completely different types of sound...Turkish vs. Arabic for example? Or do different strings on the same oud only make a relatively minor difference in the type of sound produced?

farukturunz - 10-2-2014 at 11:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
Quote:
Or do different strings on the same oud only make a relatively minor difference in the type of sound produced?


Dear David,

The strings are produced to carry out some characteristic vibration modes. While vibrating they act in a way that some overtones (of the string itself) are also produced along with the fundamental tone (frequency) The composition of overtones vary by virtue of the physical properties of the string. Instrument itself magnifies the overtones according to its constructive properties. Two separate component's elements (those of the string and those of the instrument) embark and interfere. The string-instrument system acts according to a highly complex instant wave's deformed state of shape: Some miliseconds after the string had been plugged, the overtones produced by the string are either completely or partly attenuated and faded and some overtones are utterly or partially feeded and magified according to the structural ability of the instrument. After this first impact and localization of the resonance a feedback starts to treat all the event. The string is affected by the system to go on in a permanent mode which will dominate the whole vibration of the system (stirng-instrument).
So if a particular brand string produces a desirable sound on a particular instrument the mechanism of the instrument may have been more proper for that string other than any different label.

franck leriche - 10-2-2014 at 11:30 AM

Different brands and tension produce udge differences.
When i bought my two double soundboard ouds i was really disappointed, as it was a special offer from Faruk Türünz, i can imagine it was set up with poor strings.
It took me a while to find out the right strings, but now i play nothing but those two, even if i'm the lucky owner of an amazing Abdu George Nahhat oud, and a great Mohammadi barbat.

The difference is not only noticeable in sound, but in the easiness of playing.
Sometimes it can be frustrating to switch.
On my turkish oud, i switched from d'addario customs to a turkish brand who makes great strings( hand made strings is the name of the brand)
The tension of the treble where much stronger, and somehow stiffer( carbon).
But once i got use to it, it opened me a complete new space.

A contrario i tried the same brand for the arabic one, and it was a disaster for me.
So i took back my old pyramid lute set wish wasn't worn out after almost one year.

franck leriche - 10-2-2014 at 11:33 AM

As Faruk said, his oud are absolutely perfectly balanced, even with poor string, one can feel the balance, but the quality of the tone and the harmonics are truly different with great strings.

DavidJE - 10-2-2014 at 12:02 PM

Thank you for the detailed explanation of how the strings and instrument interact Faruk! It's interesting to understand how these things work. And thanks for relating your experience Franck. Fortunately for me I've really liked both sets of strings I have tried thus far, and I'm curious to try the Pyramid lute strings next.

I definitely agree that Faruk's ouds are perfectly balanced, in my experience. My first oud was a relatively cheap one, which I bought near the Galata Tower on a trip to Istanbul, and there is no comparison whatsoever to that oud and the two I bought from Faruk. Not only the sound, but also the ease of playing is amazing in comparison. And...the quality of the workmanship is also incredible.

But getting back to danieletarab's first post...it sounds like it's definitely true that certain ouds will respond better to certain brands of strings, particularly in light of Faruk's explanation. But how would certain strings sound more "Arabic" than others, as danieletarab has suggested? Could it simply be that the La Bella strings were a good match for that particular Arabic tuned oud, so the interaction created the desired sound based on the tuning?

I'm still curious about the difference between the sound of the ouds I bought from Faruk...one for Turkish tuning and one for Arabic tuning. Maybe they do both sound like "Türünz ouds", but they also have very unique and different sound (which isn't captured nearly as well in recordings as in person). I assume part of that is due to the different tunings and the tones and overtones that creates, and maybe the rest is simply a difference in wood, finish on the Arabic tuned oud's soundboard, etc.. I LOVE the sound of both of them, and tend to alternate between playing them. I can't say I like either necessarily better than the other, so it's sometimes hard to decide which one I want to grab! They're both just different. Even with the same brand of strings, they sound different. Do you have the same experience Franck, with your Arabic and Turkish tuned ouds from Faruk?

EDIT: On another thread, here, jdowning wrote:
Quote:
For those who can afford it and who seek the old Arabic sound perhaps the answer is to revert to all gut stringing or at least gut with wound basses on a silk core for oud designs dating to the late 19th C? Although strings are at the root of the sound of an instrument, acoustic design is, of course, important in amplifying acoustically the string vibrations and tones where they can be heard.


So he seems to be saying that string choice is a major factor in the type or style of sound one gets from their oud.

Then again, Oud Freak says:
Quote:
Once someone told me that for an very oriental sound, choice of strings is the only name of the game.

However there is a counter example : during the last two years I have tried the sound several Nazih Ghadban ouds. Some of them had pyramid lute strings, others pyramid orange label, and occasional kurschner and Labellas. I was surprised to notice that all of them, in spite of the sustain and the rich harmonics, sounded extremely شرقي oriental. Their harmonics, while being rich, were at the same discreet and not too dominant. Incredibly balanced!


So we seem to have some contradictory ideas here.

Obviously the combination of oud and strings are most important, as you can put great strings on a bad quality oud and it will still sound bad, and you can also put bad strings on a great oud, and it will sound bad. But if you can put the same strings on an "Arabic" oud and a "Turkish" oud and the former sounds Arabic and the later sounds "Turkish", then it seems that the determining factor of sound style is not the strings, but the oud itself. And regardless of the sound "style", the strings do need to "match" the oud.

franck leriche - 10-2-2014 at 11:09 PM

I 'm convinced the turkish or arabic sound comes from the bracing and the musical background of the player not from the strings.

The strings will give the full potential of the instrument and help the player to be more committed with his instrument.
Plus the choice of the plectrum might change depending on the strings and instrument too.

Also obviously, there is a personal choice depending on what one expects from his oud.

Those choices may change during your life....it's a great adventure!!!

At that point of my life, i don't care about sounding arabic or turkish, i just try to get the best sound that i can from my instruments.

This is also the reason i like Faruk's oud so much, they don't sound very turkish or arabic.

DavidJE - 10-3-2014 at 12:03 AM

Quote:
I 'm convinced the turkish or arabic sound comes from the bracing and the musical background of the player not from the strings...This is also the reason i like Faruk's oud so much, they don't sound very turkish or arabic.


More and more I am noticing that playing style (rhythmic/picking style, ornamentation, etc.) accounts for a great deal of the difference between what I hear as music that is more "Arabic" and music that is more "Turkish".

Out of curiosity Franck, are you implying that because Faruk's ouds don't necessarily sound very Turkish or very Arabic, that the player has more leeway in influencing the sound of his own style? And, what difference do you notice between your Türünz ouds made for Turkish and Arabic tuning?

With my ouds, again, it could be down to the difference in materials and have less or nothing to do with any different type of bracing (if there is any, I don't know), but I find my Turkish tuned oud to be a bit louder and brighter...a little "livelier". My Arabic tuned oud sounds a little more "muffled", but in a good way.

franck leriche - 10-5-2014 at 06:12 AM

It's a bit of a short cut to say Faruk's oud are all not very turkish or arabic, as i'm sure he's open to any idea.
For sure he has his own idea of what he likes in matter of sound and balance.

From what i can hear all over the oud world, there is no one arabic sound or turkish sound, and that's the beauty of it.
Great players sharing the same culture have a very different sound, Sunbati and Qasagi...Bacanos and Tanrikorur

Even to compare Faruk's oud in the hand of Yurdal Tocan and Mehmet Bitmez, they sound very different.

If you look at the professional players who play Faruk's oud, most of them are not very traditional.
To my hear his turkish and arabic ouds are more like two cousins, each of them has his own personality.

I 've been playing only like 5 of his ouds, they were all slightly different but still sharing some common esthetics.

danieletarab - 10-7-2014 at 12:42 PM

For istance, thanks to all of you for your very special contribution (especially to Mater Turunz!).
I will try to be clearer.
Arabic style oud is very much based on tremolo, and you usually play it with horn or rigid plastic rishas, while turkish style oud is very much based on ornamentation and you usually play it with soft plastic rishas.
When I received my Turunz oud, I had some trouble to get an arabic feeling with it. Strings were too soft for my horn risha; tremolo was not as "dry" as I wished, and I had to play the oud in a much softer way than I was used to. I am not a very "heavy" player (the arabic teachers I had play much harder than me), but I am not as soft as average turkish players would be.

With higher tension strings, tremolo got great, horn risha sounds beatiful, and I could finally play the oud in a more "vigourous" way. SUddently I had the feeling that my oud turned to be "arabic" :)

Of course I am not sayng that bracing, wood etc are not important features, but only that for my humble point of view, Turunz arabic ouds are actually ARABIC OUDS if you put the right strings on it :)

Now my aim will be to get another arabic Turunz oud with arabic string's lenght (61cm more or less). That was my aim from the beginning, but unfortunally reduced price ouds are only 58.50 cm size (for obvious reasons was easier for Master Faruk to keep the same size with all his reduced price ouds, and that is understandable).

Conclusion: It's great that one can buy such an oud with so little money :)


DavidJE - 10-7-2014 at 11:16 PM

Quote:
Arabic style oud is very much based on tremolo, and you usually play it with horn or rigid plastic rishas, while turkish style oud is very much based on ornamentation and you usually play it with soft plastic rishas. When I received my Turunz oud, I had some trouble to get an arabic feeling with it. Strings were too soft for my horn risha; tremolo was not as "dry" as I wished, and I had to play the oud in a much softer way than I was used to. I am not a very "heavy" player (the arabic teachers I had play much harder than me), but I am not as soft as average turkish players would be. With higher tension strings, tremolo got great, horn risha sounds beatiful, and I could finally play the oud in a more "vigourous" way. SUddently I had the feeling that my oud turned to be "arabic"


Thanks for clarifying Daniele. I'll have to give the La Bella strings a try on my Arabic oud, too.

Brian Prunka - 10-8-2014 at 06:03 PM

In my experience, the same strings will respond very differently to different ouds. Each oud has an inherent character that comes through regardless of the strings chosen. Certain strings will highlight different characteristics, but the essence is in the construction (primarily soundboard and bracing).

People often ask "what are the best strings for my oud" or even "what are the best strings"—there really is no answer for this, you have to try different things to see how your oud responds. The maker may often have a useful opinion, since they likely have strings in mind that fit their conception of the sound, but even this is not foolproof (many makers have limited access to strings and their choice is just the best easily available set).

I have heard Aquila sound amazing on one oud and totally lifeless on another. I have heard Savarez give warmth and character to an otherwise dry and sterile sounding oud, yet on another oud they lacked resonance. D'addario, LaBella, Pyramid, Kurschner—all of them can sound great on one oud and mediocre on others.

In my opinion, the only strings that work very well on all ouds are the Pyramid Lute. On some ouds, they are a far superior choice, on others, you could get better results for less by using LaBella or Aquila. But I have never felt them to be disappointing. LaBella is also a good choice, they are always reasonably good-sounding. I prefer to assemble custom sets rather than use the prepackaged 'oud' sets, since that way I have more control.

String tension is a big consideration, but even that is not totally predictable, since different ouds will respond differently to the same theoretical string tension. I have had ouds sound great with individual tensions of anywhere from 2.7Kg to 4.4Kg (average tension from 3Kg to 4.2Kg). How hard one plays and the desired sound/style play a role as well.

That said, the LaBella 'Arabic' set is a pretty good prepackaged choice for any turkish-scale oud tuned Arabic, since the trebles are heavy enough to compensate for the lower tuning and short scale, and the high f'f' tuning for which they are made is typically used on shorter-scale ouds.

jlmsika - 10-11-2014 at 12:43 PM

On my old Gamil George oud, I use only natural gut strings for the trebles (Savarez boyau huilé 0,61 and 0,79 mm. Available at Rome Instruments, rue de Rome, 75008 Paris..) and they sound great...
I would like to use wound strings on a natural silk core (instead of nylon core) for the lower strings, if I could find them...
Can please anyone help me find them?

Danielo - 10-12-2014 at 04:07 AM

Bonjour Jean-Loup,

I was also looking for wound strings with silk core. As far as I know only Aquila make them for their historical guitar sets. I asked Mimmo whether it would be possible to produce an oud set with silk wound strings, but it requires too much work regarding the very limited market. It is probably possible to obtain the right tension on the oud using strings from the guitar sets at different pitches.. I may have the calculations somewhere

best,

Dan

Jason - 10-12-2014 at 05:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
In my experience, the same strings will respond very differently to different ouds. Each oud has an inherent character that comes through regardless of the strings chosen. Certain strings will highlight different characteristics, but the essence is in the construction (primarily soundboard and bracing).


Brian is there anything still on the market similar to the copper wrapped Aquilas that were discontinued?

Brian Prunka - 10-12-2014 at 06:03 AM

The only strings I currently know of that are plain copper, rather than silver-plated, are the Savarez Lute strings. However, these sound much different from the Aquila–lower tension, more percussive. The closest thing to the old copper Aquilas are probably the newer Aquilas—they are still basically the same construction, only they've been silver-plated.