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Hi & Question

Schalli - 10-23-2014 at 05:28 PM

(Sorry for my bad english)

Hi,
2 Days ago i borrowed my first Oud, so i'm absolutely new to this Instrument. I read this Forum for about two weeks now and wanted to introduce myself now that i've got an Instrument. And maybe you can help me with some Questions or give me some general advice on getting startet with the Oud/Du. I already read the FAQ.

My Name is Tobi and I'm 33 years old. I live in Germany. I've been playing Flamenco guitar for about six years now, but i had a break of about one year now because of a lack of time and some Frustration about practicing 10000-Right-Hand-techniques a day with very slow process. I still like flamenco-Music, but i'm tired of practicing right Hand instead of playing some Music. The Flamenco-Palo (style) i liked most at the end of my guitarplaying was "Zambra", a oriental sounding style (Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvY6fPtaLM ). And i was looking for a more meditative Musicstyle, because i'm a very stressed Person. So i decided to give the oud a try.
My Ud is tuned D-A-E-B-F#-B (Turkish) and i've been shown the first 8 Notes of Maqam Hijaz. Because of the absense of frets i'm struggling finding the exact notes. I practice with a tuner on my desktopscreen. I Listen to the note i play and guess if it is right/too high/too low. Then i look on the tuner to see if i was right and try to adjust my playing. I hope i'll get more exact this way.
Is this a good method of getting used to the fretless fingerboard or are there better ones? How many Cents can i deviate from the exact notes untill they will be considered as "wrong"? Is there any additional advice you would give to a newbee?
Thanks
Tobi

Jody Stecher - 10-23-2014 at 06:56 PM

First of all, your English is not bad at all and your meaning is perfectly clear. Second, it might help to know that nobody learns to hear the fine gradations of pitch of Middle Eastern music in a few days. It takes time. Once you are able to hear it, finding where to put your fingers is easy. You will recognize immediately whether to play flatter or sharper.

Third, it is the absence of frets that makes it possible to play the oud in tune (for makam music). Fretlessness is your your friend.
So try looking at the situation that way.

May I suggest that you forget about eyes and finger placement for a few days or weeks? Certainly use the correct fingers but don't worry about exact placement in units of measurement such as millimeters or cents. Use your ears and get it as close as you can. Listen to musicians playing makam Hicaz. Then listen some more. When you are done with that try some listening instead. Then listen. For variety and change do some listening. Especially listen to the sound of your oud as you play. You will be amazed how your stress melts away (provided you don't forget to breathe).

After a while you will be calm enough to hear that there are several varieties of Hicaz in Turkish music, and some more in Arabic music. One difference is the gap between the second and third note and just how high/low that second tone is. How many cents does it vary? It depends on the context, the decade, the type of music, who the musician is, and on geography. And it doesn't matter right now because right now you can't discern such tiny differences. Later you will be able to hear microtones. Forget about the tuner except to tune your second double course to aa and to verify if you are in the general vicinity of each pitch. Lately there have been some advances in digital tuners and there is some hope for the future. For now you are safest assuming that the tuner is always wrong. Since no two types of digital tuner agree as to what is in tune, how can any of them be right? These devices were not developed to correspond to any kind of music that actual human beings actually play but rather to one of several theoretical models. If you learn to play in perfect correspondence with a typical digital tuner you will sound like Muzak and Elevator Music and music for and by robots. And you will feel even more stressed. GOOD LUCK. You know, just the sound of an open string on a well tuned oud is calming and good for lowering blood pressure.

Almelaifi - 10-23-2014 at 09:44 PM

I agree with Jody. Just forget about the exact positions as long as you're using the right finger on the right spot. At least for now. You will develop a sense of where to put your fingers with time.

The best advice I can give you is that listen a lot. Your ears will get it before your fingers.

Good luck

Jody Stecher - 10-23-2014 at 09:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Almelaifi

I agree with Jody. Just forget about the exact positions as long as you're using the right finger on the right spot. At least for now. You will develop a sense of where to put your fingers with time.

The best advice I can give you is that listen a lot. Your ears will get it before your fingers.

Good luck

Thank you, Almelaifi. That was much more succinct than my rant and is right on target: the ears will get it first.

Schalli - 10-23-2014 at 11:51 PM

Hi Jody & Almelaifi,
thank you for your replies

Maybe I should really just Play and listen. (I already listen a lot)
The reason why i was asking is that i learned some really bad habbit practicing flamenco-technique in the past (right at the beginning). After that i had to spent A LOT of practicetime (Month at least) trying to get rid of these bad technical habbits. So now, starting Oud-Playing, i want to do things "right" from the beginning.
Does "It depends on the context, the decade, the type of music, WHO THE MUSICIAN IS, and on geography" mean, that the choice of how exact I play a note is just a matter of personal taste, as Long as i don't Change the "mood" of a maqam too much??

Digital Tuners

oudistcamp - 10-24-2014 at 07:30 AM

Just to show how different digital tuners' readings can be.
Same maker - one tuner even reads 'G'.....

[file]33005[/file]

Jody Stecher - 10-24-2014 at 11:50 AM

I didn't mean it was about personal taste as much as what the custom is for the particular type of music in the particular region. For example : Hijaz in Cairo will be different than in Istanbul and in Istanbul classical Ottoman Hijaz will be different than the "nightclub style", and a Cairo oud player's Hijaz 50 years ago would be different from the pitches in Hijaz that a 24 tone accordion produces today.

About bad habits and not forming them at the start: this forum contains past discussions which go into great detail about the right hand. The left hand is similar to what you know from guitar: don't push harder than necessary and do not let your fingers fly away from the fingerboard. Keep the fingers very close to the strings. Do not use fingers randomly. Same as guitar really.

Quote: Originally posted by Schalli

Hi Jody & Almelaifi,
thank you for your replies

Schalli - 10-30-2014 at 02:10 AM

Hi,
thanks for the answeres so far! I've got two new questions about Songs. I hope it's ok to ask such things here

The first one is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5EHtcy4RZ4
What Maqam is this? Or which maqams?

Second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w6FB64kcnc
I really like the mood of this Song. What Maqam is this? And does this song have a Title so i can Research a Translation of the lyrics? I'M really wondering what this song is about but i cant understand a Word or even recognize the language.
Thanks a lot.

Jody Stecher - 10-30-2014 at 05:22 AM

The second one is Lamma Bada Yatathanna. It's very well known and everyone likes it (except maybe those who have heard it done badly one time too many). The maqam is sometimes called Nahawand transposed from C to G and is sometimes said to be Maqam Farafazah. The language is Arabic of an old poetic style. The poet is captivated by a woman. Her movements are compared to the movements of a tree branch in a gentle breeze. You can find several translations on the internet, each one different.

Schalli - 10-30-2014 at 05:26 AM

Thank you once again for the quick and informativ answer :applause:

SamirCanada - 10-30-2014 at 05:45 AM

Jody, I despise this Lamma Bada Yatathanna tune

I think I heard tooooo many times. When I listen to it I feel I am dying a slow anogizing death.

if you wanna hear muwashahat this is more like it !
http://youtu.be/hpo92LHSoEc
http://youtu.be/ufjkOnRRQu4

this is pure Tarab inducing music that brings pure exhaltement.

Jody Stecher - 10-30-2014 at 07:16 AM

Of course! All allergies arise from overexposure to the allergen.

The situation reminds me of a joke my dad used to tell about a restaurant that got so popular and now "is so crowded no one goes there anymore".

Sabah Fakhri, in my opinion, is so good, he could produce tarab by singing the telephone book or a shopping list. And he always seems to have musicians who know how to play together well. I love how they work together with the vocalist so that by the end of a wasla they have worked up a head of steam without ever making noise or resorting to cheap tricks. I have an old cassette of his that sounds great on a little Radio Shack cassette player that still works after so many years. Every time it gets near the end of a suite I think "ok, *this time* I'm sure the cassette machine is going to explode from the energy."

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada

Jody, I despise this Lamma Bada Yatathanna tune