Mike's Oud Forums

alternate picking question

journeyman - 12-11-2014 at 07:41 PM

I'm confused about the whole alternate picking thing on the oud. (I was confused about it on guitar for over 30 years too, but I think I finally discovered how that works.) Here is a passage that I want to play fast; above 120 on the MM and notice that it is in cut time; some will recognize the passage. I have indicated the strings on the oud below the passage for clarity. If I use a rest stroke when changing strings, or consecutive down strokes, it simply won't work at a fast tempo as there is not time to reposition the risha after the rest stroke for the next note on the adjacent string. If I use free stroke, the sound is weak and it feels REALLY awkward and sluggish. Theory of picking aside (because often musicians will think they are playing a certain way when in fact they can be doing something quite different) for those who can execute this or similar passages at a fast tempo, can you tell me how you are doing it? What is really going on with the right hand in terms of picking. Of course we can all play it slowly or at a medium tempo, but this is FAST. If I could find the answer to this, it would solve a whole lot of confusion. I should mention that I can do it with a lot of left hand hammer ons and pull offs, but lets assume for now that every note will be picked. Tuning is standard Arabic, CFAdgc. Perhaps some will say the left hand fingering should be changed; that might be helpful too.

Jody Stecher - 12-11-2014 at 11:30 PM

If this passage is played with alternate picking —assuming that the first stroke is down and assuming that no rest strokes are being played on up strokes — there is only one spot where a rest stroke is followed by a change to a (lower) adjacent course. That is the change from string 3 to string 4, leaving the open D and landing on a fingered C. If the stroke is played *as if* it was going to follow through and come to rest on the upper member of the gg pair of strings (second course) but is instead moved a small bit *out*, just enough to not touch any strings, the D note will sound full because both members of the pair have been sounded instead of just one member as often happens with a free stroke, and the risha can play a clean upstroke on the C note, the first note to be played on course 4 (the AA course).

Another possibility is to follow through all the way and complete the contact with the string below but instead of resting the risha, the risha is allowed to rebound or bounce upward. On its journey upward the hand moves away from the oud face just enough to prevent any collision with either of the two strings of the third course.

There is an alternative which produces a sound I like better and which is no more difficult and which preserves the pattern of having the first stroke on a new course be a down stroke. That is to play the first 3 notes of measure 3 as down-up-down (d-u-d) and then play the 5 notes on the 4th course as either d, d-u-d-u or as d-u-d, d-u or as d-u, d-u-d. I prefer the first of those 3 choices. Many consecutive downstrokes at high speed can be difficult and tiring but only one repetition is no big deal.

I agree with your indicated fingering.

oudistcamp - 12-12-2014 at 08:41 AM

Use alternate Down/Up strokes.
I have attached a further analysis of the phrase.
The main melody is extracted, and the long notes own the downstrokes (stronger), and the short passing notes get the upstrokes(softer). The phrase gets its shape that way. Try playing it.
Now it makes more sense why you play the full phrase in alternate Down/Up strokes.

If you do not use alternate strokes, the melody is off.
It will sound like a 3-legged race.
If alternate strokes sound weak or confusing, it just needs more work until that discipline becomes intuitive.
Hope that helps....



[file]33646[/file]

journeyman - 12-12-2014 at 03:52 PM

Thanks Jody and oudistcamp. I'll investigate all these suggestions.

Jody Stecher wrote: "If the stroke is played *as if* it was going to follow through and come to rest on the upper member of the gg pair of strings (second course) but is instead moved a small bit *out*, just enough to not touch any strings, the D note will sound full because both members of the pair have been sounded instead of just one member as often happens with a free stroke, and the risha can play a clean upstroke on the C note"

In this suggestion Jody, it seems like a very subtle adjustment of RH positioning is necessary and is in line with what I have come to think is the most efficient way of playing a freestroke, on oud or any plucked instrument played with a plectrum, and that is that the plane of the stroke is an arc. By making an arc with the plectrum there is no need to prepare or readjust risha position for the next stroke because it is automatically in position at the end of the arc; execution and preparation are contained in the same movement. The challenge is twofold; [1] accurate position and size of the arc, and [2] producing a good sound. Like anything, I suspect that the way to develop this is to practice VERY slowly.

The suggestion to play two downstrokes in a row is to my mind less efficient in theory, but I have noticed that there are times when I do it naturally without thinking. Certainly the sound is preserved. I'll try to see what exactly is going on with the mechanics of this type of consecutive downstroke motion. Thanks again guys; very helpful! -Roy

Jody Stecher - 12-12-2014 at 05:10 PM

Part of my mentioning getting the C on the downstroke is because I noticed that I do it naturally. The other part is that there is a convention in older oud styles (and also in older Italian mandolin and other older plectrum traditions) when shifting from one string to another for the first stroke on the new string to be a downstroke. Doing this colors the music in a charming way.

Brian Prunka - 12-12-2014 at 05:17 PM

I will go ahead and violate your criteria and suggest that the playing the last d on the 3rd course as a pull-off and the first A on the next course as an upstroke is much easier and sonically nearly indistinguishable from alternate picking (assuming you have a strong pull-off).

Otherwise, I think Jody's suggestion of working on the free stroke to make the string crossing work easier to be a good suggestion. I don't really think that the three down strokes in a row is a workable solution at this tempo, but perhaps someone can do it.

I have attached a recording of my solution.

[file]33648[/file]

But maybe I'm just lazy :D

edit: I meant upstroke, see bold above

Jody Stecher - 12-12-2014 at 05:26 PM

Brian, yes, the pull-off is a good way to land a downstroke on the C with minimum fuss. But has someone suggested 3 downstrokes in a row? I suggested 2.

Brian Prunka - 12-12-2014 at 05:42 PM

Actually I just edited my previous post, with the pull-off I still land on C with an upstroke—it is functionally still like alternate picking, the second d is just a "ghost" downstroke.

Your suggestion, as I read it, is three downstrokes in a row: d, c, b-flat.
Quote:
There is an alternative which produces a sound I like better and which is no more difficult and which preserves the pattern of having the first stroke on a new course be a down stroke. That is to play the first 3 notes of measure 3 (I think you mean m.2) as down-up-down (d-u-d) and then play the 5 notes on the 4th course as either d, d-u-d-u or as d-u-d, d-u or as d-u, d-u-d. I prefer the first of those 3 choices.


d-u-d, d-d-u-d
Is the solution you said you prefer, leaving three downs in a row. (I am using dashes to indicate strokes on the same string, commas to separate strings)

The second suggestion:
d-u-d, d-u-d-d-u
Only has two downs together at a time, but is going to have a strange sound (IMO), much less desirable than the pull-off or the strict alternate options.

The third solution is even worse, IMO, because you end up with an awkward phrasing as well as repeating the issue on the next string cross.

If you follow all of them through to the final note, they are (consecutive downs in bold):
d-u-d, d-d-u-d, d
d-u-d, d-u-d-d-u, d
d-u-d, d-u-d-u-d, d

Honestly I don't like any of these at a fast tempo. At a slower tempo I would maybe use the first one, but more likely would just stick with strict alternation.

Brian Prunka - 12-12-2014 at 06:13 PM

Or perhaps you meant to say beat three? In that case, it is a much better solution, but I am still skeptical about it working at this tempo.

Can you do it? If so, I am impressed.

Brian Prunka - 12-12-2014 at 06:20 PM

Actually I realize that that can't be what you meant . . . never mind.

Roy:
For sure this is a challenging phrase, I consider it may have been conceived more for the violin than the oud. I doubt that Sounbati could play this line on oud cleanly at the typical tempo for this piece.

Aside from the pedagogical value of grappling with the phrase as is, alternative formulations of the basic idea have value as well.
Oudistcamp's version is the basic idea, which could be simplified further to just A, F#, D, Bb, G each getting a beat.

One way of elaborating this idea is:
A Bb G A
F# G Eb F#
D Eb C D
Bb C A Bb
G

or
A - A G
F# - F# Eb
D - D C
Bb - Bb A
G

A Bb A -
F# - F# Eb
D Eb D -
Bb - Bb A
G

I realize this is a different approach than the more technical question that you were asking, but I think it is worth exploring the concept of variations as well.


Jody Stecher - 12-12-2014 at 06:30 PM

Ah! I see. Yes you're right. And yes I meant measure two. What I actually meant was "the third grouping of four notes" but that is how measure 2 starts. So, yes, the way I prefer is indeed 3 downstrokes in row but it doesn't present itself to my mind or my picking hand that way. That's because of decades of patterned plectrology playing sarode and also Irish dance music. After a while "down up down" becomes a single unit to the mind of the player. Same for Downup. Same for down. these can be sliced and diced, mixed and matched with no effort at all after sufficient practice. It's as if there were an alphabet and the only 2 letters are D and U. And they can spell all sorts of things. I hope that made sense (??)

Anyway, not only can I do it, I do it automatically. It's no big deal.

Now….if I understand you correctly, what you are advocating is not landing on C (the first note on the AA course) with an downstroke as I had thought but rather with an upstroke after having pulled the previous note. Yes that is a very elegant solution and with the "ghost" downstroke on D it really the same as alternate picking with one awkward bit smoothed over. Yes! very good.
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Actually I just edited my previous post, with the pull-off I still land on C with an upstroke—it is functionally still like alternate picking, the second d is just a "ghost" downstroke.

Your suggestion, as I read it, is three downstrokes in a row: d, c, b-flat.

Quote:
There is an alternative which produces a sound I like better and which is no more difficult and which preserves the pattern of having the first stroke on a new course be a down stroke. That is to play the first 3 notes of measure 3 (I think you mean m.2) as down-up-down (d-u-d) and then play the 5 notes on the 4th course as either d, d-u-d-u or as d-u-d, d-u or as d-u, d-u-d. I prefer the first of those 3 choices.


d-u-d, d-d-u-d
Is the solution you said you prefer, leaving three downs in a row. (I am using dashes to indicate strokes on the same string, commas to separate strings)

The second suggestion:
d-u-d, d-u-d-d-u
Only has two downs together at a time, but is going to have a strange sound (IMO), much less desirable than the pull-off or the strict alternate options.

The third solution is even worse, IMO, because you end up with an awkward phrasing as well as repeating the issue on the next string cross.

If you follow all of them through to the final note, they are (consecutive downs in bold):
d-u-d, d-d-u-d, d
d-u-d, d-u-d-d-u, d
d-u-d, d-u-d-u-d, d

Honestly I don't like any of these at a fast tempo. At a slower tempo I would maybe use the first one, but more likely would just stick with strict alternation.

Brian Prunka - 12-12-2014 at 06:52 PM

Would you mind posting a short recording? I don't doubt you, but I would be very curious to hear how it sounds at tempo, since that way of executing it seems rather awkward to me and I would like to hear how it can be fluid. I definitely think of "down-up-down" as a single unit in many circumstances (especially in triplet meters) but it breaks down at a certain tempo.

Jody Stecher - 12-12-2014 at 08:19 PM

I'm not set up to make a recording. the mic on my computer is no good. If I can work out a way to do it I will.

journeyman - 12-12-2014 at 09:13 PM

Well I've tried different suggestions. There is no way I can do two downstrokes in a row while crossing strings at a fast tempo. I can see how I could work up to alternate picking throughout the phrase, but I won't know how good it will sound until I do it. Musically speaking, I like using the left hand hammer on and pull off technique to achieve speed and dynamics within the phrase; THAT I can sort of do at a fast tempo. I would love to be able to do it while picking every note though, so I'm going to start a routine of alternate freestroke exercises at a very, very slow tempo and work up from there to see what happens. I can afford 10 minutes a day for that and then I should know after a month or so if I can do it. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic; I've found it very helpful. I'll post in a few weeks after I've had a chance to work on the alternate freestroke and give a progress report. Right now my alternate freestroke sounds and feels like s%^&*, so there is no where to go but up. -Roy

Jody Stecher - 12-12-2014 at 09:26 PM

OK, I made a rough and ready recording using Garage Band on an old iMac. It makes my oud sound like it has a cold. I'm afraid I'm jumping the beat a bit but this'll do to show what I mean. I can't work out how to post the file here so I've emailed it to your shop address, Brian.

mavrothis - 12-13-2014 at 10:32 AM

Hi guys,

Generally when traveling to lower notes at higher speeds, and during certain ornamental figures, it is much more efficient to finger some notes (on the lower, adjacent string) that exist as open strings rather than playing the open string.

Here is my recommended fingering for this passage, especially if you want to play it fast:

Brian Prunka - 12-13-2014 at 02:23 PM

Ha, Mav—I can tell you play Turkish ouds! This is a very good suggestion (and is essentially an extension of the fingering already presented with the G - F# on the 3rd course) and very logical.

However, making that switch from Eb on the 3rd course to D on the 4th course might not seem like such a good idea on a 62cm Arabic oud. It may not be practical for everyone, but is a good solution to consider.

mavrothis - 12-13-2014 at 02:53 PM

You'd be surprised Brian!

With some time working these fingerings and getting used to them, even a longer scale oud is doable.

Just think about cellists and their fingering combinations!

bulerias1981 - 12-14-2014 at 08:12 AM

There is another option for left hand on this piece.. you can use the following

2, 3, 2, 0, 3, 4, 3, 1, 0, 1, 0, 3, 1, 3, 1, 0, 2

this might help a bit.. the only thing different here is when you get to the D string you're playing F# with 3, and G with the 4. Keep the rishi nice and tight, close to the strings, this fingering is a good one, and I sometimes use (I actually play this different from time to time)

Brian Prunka - 12-14-2014 at 10:35 AM

The 3/4 F#/G fingering is what is written in the original example and in Mav's . . . I prefer 1 and 2 for A and Bb if you are going to use 3 for F#, so the position shifting is minimized.

Actually, practicing the G - F# - G - F# as up/dn/up/dn on adjacent strings is an excellent thing to work on as well.

On the subject of picking, there are a lot of cases where one would normally go down/down on an ascending string crossing but down/up offers a better overall solution when the string crossing is repeated immediately (Kevser Hanim Longa Nahawand, the fast section of Zikrayat, etc.). So this is a good thing to develop.

Here are some examples of picking that I have found effective. This is not intended to be authoritative in any way—different approaches are certainly possible.

bulerias1981 - 12-14-2014 at 10:50 AM

I've been studying violin lately, and that kind of fingering (playing the G on the D string with the 4th finger) is the way you'd play it on violin.

Brian Prunka - 12-14-2014 at 11:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  
I've been studying violin lately, and that kind of fingering (playing the G on the D string with the 4th finger) is the way you'd play it on violin.


It's just strange that you said "There is another option for left hand" and then described the same option that has been under discussion this whole time.
It seemed clear from Roy's original notation—everything from the F# to the D is on the 3rd course, which would naturally mean that the G must be the 4th finger. But I guess it's good to clarify it in case anyone was confused.

I find it odd that you would play the A with the second finger if you were going to play the F# with the third finger. Is that really how you are playing it? With the open G you have time to switch positions, but it is more efficient to play the A with the 1st finger.

bulerias1981 - 12-14-2014 at 12:08 PM

Yeah, I actually use 2nd finger for A, I find it more comfortable personally. I've tried both ways, I like first for A, could be a matter of getting used to the other way