Mike's Oud Forums

Cant decide which one

Jorje - 4-22-2015 at 09:55 PM

Hello guys

Im new here in this for foru so nice to meet you all :)


Im playing acoustic guitar and now i want to learn to play the oud,
So I last week i had quite a journey on finding my first oud.

I now got in my home 2 ouds i took form the store for cheking

1.Syrian- an Ibrhim sukar i think model 201a and
2.Turkish - an Ahmed adakan

I really having a lot of doubt since every one of them as pros and cons, so i decide to bring my toughts here so maybe you can help me:

1. The Ibrahim sukar its a beautiful instrument and was the first oud i was took.
Although the fact its a small "turkish" body (60.5 cm) i was very impressed by its Arabic tone. i considered it as "swiss army knife". the only thing is that it got some weird buzz for the C bass string when first half note is freted. next the A bass some times doing the same even all over the neck and the string sound a bit with no zing. its not consistent buzz and come in a different frequencys. there is no buzzez when strummed open or slow and easy so i tought its a common typical oud buzz.

The day after i came back to the store said this buzz is bother me, so the guy in the store called some local oud expert to check it out and he has tear off the nut (how was glued) and place a thin piece of wood under it and glued all together again to make the nut higher . its doesnt resolve the problem.
i really dont think it relate to the nut since it only happen string are freted.

Since i read a lot here in this forum about buzzes i did the common first steps as replacing strings to pyramid orange and cutting excesses string legnth. checking the knots .i even tried to higher the string level when lossen the butterfly nut all the way and left it for couple of days . (i must say that the neck doesnt seems to be apart for the body, its seems like its glue or something). for now the action is 4 mm at neck joint on C bass string.
actually the butterfly nut is loosen totally for the last 4 days... letting it "settled" down

I must says that since it was the first oud i took to check maybe its opened up and i really like its spacial loud big Arabic sound. and i really like how it fells in my hands. but...still im really wonder maybe this instrument have a chronic issues. maybe it damaged.
in one hand since its sukar i have difficult to release it back to the store but in the other hand its should be such a fiasco....

2. the turkish Hahmed adakan

i must say a lot of people who is a musicians told me to but and turkish oud.
i must say that first i attract less to the turkish bright sound, and prefer deeper "arabic" sound.
still i brought and ahmed adakan decent oud (dont know the model). its seems to be good quality exclude from tiny finish issues on the neck. very nice narrow grained not finish spruce top
the problem is that i really cant compare the sound cause i stretched the strings and tune it for the first time 2 days ago so for now the sound is small and has no "zing" yet.
the seller guy told me it will open up soon...
Its seems to keep the tuning well.
seems to have no buzz issues yet... :)
about the price.. i cant get the turkish one for half of the price of the sukar....
i dont know if i can put pyramids on it (i think its 58.8 cm) and if i can tune it to standart arabic, since its short.... and btw it comes with a better case.
the 3 things that bother my its if it really will open up and got that "zing" and if the size will fit (cause im not a small guys..) the last thing that its doesnt have this tecnology of the neck adjustment the sukar have..

this is guys...tell me what you would do in this situation. i gave you pros and cons of each.
I spend too much time on this and i really want to have my oud finally :)
thank you so much:bowdown:






journeyman - 4-23-2015 at 06:11 AM

Welcome to the forums Jorje. First of all, the Sukar out with the 60.5 cm scale is considered an Arabic scale, not Turkish. Turkish scale is usually 58.5 cm. Secondly, the buzzing could be caused from a poorly dressed (sanded) fingerboard. This can be annoying but usually fixed with a proper dressing. Also, the Sukar should have an adjustment mechanism inside the oud so you can change the angle of the neck slightly. If there was no buzzing of open strings before they raised the nut, I would suggest lowering the nut back to where it was and adjusting the neck angle; that might resolve the issue. If the nut is too high it can make the oud difficult to play. Try to keep the action at the neck/body joint 4mm or less for comfort. The Sukar ouds are in many people's minds real workhorses. They seem solidly built, have a deep, even sound with good sustain and are used by many professional oudists. I had one years ago and regret selling it.

I can't speak about the Turkish oud, but if you like the sound of the Sukar and didn't pay too much for it, my advice would be to keep it. I'm pretty sure the buzzing can be stopped with a bit of adjustment or a proper fingerboard dressing. Get it working the way you like and in the future you can buy a more "high end" oud and have the Sukar as a second one as your backup, workhorse, travel oud, etc.

Brian Prunka - 4-23-2015 at 06:25 AM

I agree with Journeyman. If you want an classic "Arabic" sound, you're not going to get it from a Turkish oud. The issues with the Sukar can almost certainly be fixed and you will have a good oud that will last you a long time.

Matthias - 4-23-2015 at 03:07 PM
Quote:

The day after i came back to the store said this buzz is bother me, so the guy in the store called some local oud expert to check it out and he has tear off the nut (how was glued) and place a thin piece of wood under it and glued all together again to make the nut higher . its doesnt resolve the problem. i really dont think it relate to the nut since it only happen string are freted.



raising the nut only influences the open string, never the stopped string.
So having a buzz in a stopped string there may be some reasons:
-- The action is too low
-- The action is high but the fingerboard is curved ( convex )
-- The fingerboard has somewhere a gap
Quote:
Since i read a lot here in this forum about buzzes i did the common first steps as replacing strings to pyramid orange and cutting excesses string legnth. checking the knots .i even tried to higher the string level when lossen the butterfly nut all the way and left it for couple of days . (i must say that the neck doesnt seems to be apart for the body, its seems like its glue or something). for now the action is 4 mm at neck joint on C bass string.
actually the butterfly nut is loosen totally for the last 4 days... letting it "settled" down


4mm is a very high action. If a oud is arranged properly, it can be 2mm or even a bit less.

Best regards

Matthias

journeyman - 4-23-2015 at 06:37 PM

Regarding the neck adjustment on the Sukar oud, you should do the following:
-loosen the thumb screw inside the oud
-change the neck angle to where you want it with a little force (a little is all you need)
-tighten the thumb screw being careful not to tighten it too much as to strip the threads.

I can't remember if I loosened the strings or not. Perhaps someone else with Sukar experience can comment on that. Good luck.

Omar Al-Mufti - 4-23-2015 at 11:17 PM

Please note, when changing the neck angle in Sukkar, do not try to bend it. It might break a part of the oud.
As per the instructions given to me by sukkar himself, hold the oud from the neck with your left arm, extend the arm straight forward. so the back is pointing to your outer left side and the top points to the right. Hold the oud in a way makes it like a pendulum, so it can swing freely in a plane facing you. with this position, and the butterfly screw is a bit lose, hit with the palm of your right hand (hardly, don't be afraid) the spot where the neck and the body meet. the makes the neck move, and the mechanism works and the neck will pull the screws as much as the clearance space left by the screw. do this step by step, each time with less than a quarter turn to increas the action also step by step.
In the case of trying to lower the action, tightening the screw would work immediately. If it gets stuck , use the method described above, but this time the tope overlooking your left hand side outwards, and hitting the same spot but on the back side, not on the top side. Make sure that you lower the strings tension while decreasing the actions. The strings tension works agains you in this case
In either cases increasing or decreasing the actions, wrap up your process by making sure that the screw is tight, so the mechanism will keep your settings unchanged.

journeyman - 4-23-2015 at 11:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Omar Al-Mufti  
Please note, when changing the neck angle in Sukkar, do not try to bend it. It might break a part of the oud.
As per the instructions given to me by sukker, hold the oud from the neck with your left arm, extend the arm straight forward. so the back is pointing to your outer left side and the top points to the right. Hold the oud in a way makes it like a pendulum, so it can swing freely in a plane facing you. with this position, and the butterfly screw is a bit lose, hit with the palm of your right hand the spot where the neck and the body meet. the makes the neck move, and the mechanism clearance occupies the lose space left by the screw. do this step by step, each time with less than a quarter turn to increas the action also step by step.
In the case of trying to lower the action, tightening the screw would work immediately. If it gets stuck , use the method described above, but this time the tope overlooking your left hand side outwards, and hitting the same spot but on the back side, not on the top side. Make sure that you lower the oud tension while decreasing the actions. The string tension works agains you in this case


Thanks Omar; finally we have clear directions from the man who designed the system.

Omar Al-Mufti - 4-24-2015 at 12:24 AM

Pleasure!