Mike's Oud Forums

Right hand technique

rajeh - 8-28-2015 at 02:00 PM

Hi ,

As a beginner, I have a lot of questions.. I'm now focusing to improve my right hand technique. So, could anybody explain:

1- In a downstroke: Does one string is plucked downwards and the pick ends its run on the next string (rest-stroke) ? Or it's oval movement without touching the next string?

2- Any general guidance/rules when I change string? should I start with a downstroke every time? For example for 1/2 notes in two different string does the first pluck is it rest-stroke and the sd is downstroke too?

3- What's the main difference between Arabic and Iraqi risha?

4- Any video/exercise to explain above

Many thanks for your feedback
R.

Brian Prunka - 8-28-2015 at 05:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rajeh  
Hi ,

As a beginner, I have a lot of questions.. I'm now focusing to improve my right hand technique. So, could anybody explain:

1- In a downstroke: Does one string is plucked downwards and the pick ends its run on the next string (rest-stroke) ? Or it's oval movement without touching the next string?



Both are used. The rest-stroke is the primary technique, but free strokes are also used, especially for fast passages and certain complex picking patterns crossing strings.
Quote:

2- Any general guidance/rules when I change string? should I start with a downstroke every time? For example for 1/2 notes in two different string does the first pluck is it rest-stroke and the sd is downstroke too?


The usual advice is to use downstrokes whenever changing strings, though there are occasions where the upper string (in pitch) requires an upstroke to facilitate the downstroke on the lower string.
Quote:

3- What's the main difference between Arabic and Iraqi risha?


As far as I know, there is no universal difference between "Arab" and "Iraqi" risha. The old technique with eagle quill requires some differences compared to typical technique.

"Iraqi" school players seem to have a bit more emphasis on alternate picking and have some similarities to Turkish style.

Lysander - 8-28-2015 at 09:29 PM

Just to give my take on Brian's points above, I have heard of the rest stoke but never used it, nor has my oud teacher ever encouraged me to use it. Free strokes are fine.

As for changing strings, it's always easier to change strings with a downstroke. There may be occasions where you change with an upstroke, but it's not something I've really come across. I'd be I interested to see an example of a situation where changing strings is made easier through an upstroke rather than a downstroke.

Don't know of any videos to explain these, sorry. I've always found useful oud videos thin on the ground.

rajeh - 8-29-2015 at 12:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  
Just to give my take on Brian's points above, I have heard of the rest stoke but never used it, nor has my oud teacher ever encouraged me to use it. Free strokes are fine.

As for changing strings, it's always easier to change strings with a downstroke. There may be occasions where you change with an upstroke, but it's not something I've really come across. I'd be I interested to see an example of a situation where changing strings is made easier through an upstroke rather than a downstroke.

Don't know of any videos to explain these, sorry. I've always found useful oud videos thin on the ground.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s-Sglc3p7k In this video Tarek el Jundi he pluck the first note downward and the second note UP on the other string.

rajeh - 8-29-2015 at 12:11 AM

Quote:
The usual advice is to use downstrokes whenever changing strings, though there are occasions where the upper string (in pitch) requires an upstroke to facilitate the downstroke on the lower string.


Thanks, look at Tarek el Jundi Technique, Sd note is usually Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSX0cge_x70

suz_i_dil - 8-31-2015 at 04:38 AM

I try to give my little contribution to your askings. Even if indeed a good video would explain much more than words. Or a teacher. Can you access a teacher or a workshop ?

so called iraqi and arabic Risha
iraqi risha will be very tight, parallel to the strings, down/up picking. or down-up-down for triolets. That's seems the same but it's important for triplets. For instance phrasing for Jameel Bashir capricio, with a bass stroke then 2 strokes in the trebles. Many players would play down - down -up some sentences to gain some speed. But the taste will not be the same at all, make you loose the feel of the triplets. You must try to play the bass down then the 2 following notes up - down. Even if slower, forget about speed
Tight risha and parallel, I mean the fingers let a very small part of the risha free.
When i talk about that iraqi risha, I mean the kind of sound for Munir Bashir

check this, give a look carefully at his risha technique
since the very beginning you see he is very parallel to the strings
3:27 and 4:05 see how his thumb is free to make more free risha or more tight depending on the sound he wishes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69hjuVv5dzs

suz_i_dil - 8-31-2015 at 04:41 AM

So called arabic risha, I understand something more traditionnal, old style technique
For exemple toota for Farid el Atrash.
Maker a try with a risha less tight, rather free, at least more free than this style for Munir Bashir. Your hand shall get get less parallel to the strings. You will loose power in the up strokes put get power in down strokes. You should play this style with a lot of dynamic down strokes to begin sentences.

Now try to imagine the difference with the Munir Bashir style of risha. The Bashir risha would get much more equilibrate, with the same volume between up and down stroke.
Get this in mind, make a try, practice, check videos..
Have a nice work !

Brian Prunka - 8-31-2015 at 09:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  
Just to give my take on Brian's points above, I have heard of the rest stoke but never used it, nor has my oud teacher ever encouraged me to use it. Free strokes are fine.


In this video, you are actually using rest strokes when playing on the second course, at least part of the time. There are a number of other issues with your technique here, as we discussed at the time you posted this video—I don't know where you are now but I assume that you have improved since then with the help of your teacher. But even if you weren't aware of it, you in fact were doing a rest stroke at least some of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy4UQIpGzP0
Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  

As for changing strings, it's always easier to change strings with a downstroke. There may be occasions where you change with an upstroke, but it's not something I've really come across. I'd be I interested to see an example of a situation where changing strings is made easier through an upstroke rather than a downstroke.


This is not correct, as rajeh pointed out before. There are many instances where it is easier to change strings with an upstroke, for some musical examples:

Nihavent Longa Kevser Hanim
Zikrayat - M. el-Qassabji
Touta - Farid el-Atrash
Longa Farahfaza - Riad al-Sounbati

rajeh - 8-31-2015 at 11:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  


check this, give a look carefully at his risha technique
since the very beginning you see he is very parallel to the strings 3:27 and 4:05 see how his thumb is free to make more free risha or more tight depending on the sound he wishes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69hjuVv5dzs


Thanks for your replies very helpfull, I get your point, it's the same for your risha technique in Anouar Brahim "Raf Raf" (One of my favorite area in Tunisia).
In Raf Raf, it seems that y have down/up picking, but in your downwards, the pick ends its run on the next string (rest-stroke) - or it's freestroke ?

R.

Lysander - 8-31-2015 at 09:23 PM

Brian, thank you very much for your observations. Maybe my advice is ill-placed since I didn't realise I was mixing my stroke styles. As I said earlier, this has never been pointed out to me so I assume it's not so much of an issue?

I was not aware about the Kevsir Hanım piece which I have been practising for a while now, over a year. Could you point out the parts of the piece where it's easier to change with an upstroke? I'll experiment and try to find them too.

suz_i_dil - 9-1-2015 at 01:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rajeh  
Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  


check this, give a look carefully at his risha technique
since the very beginning you see he is very parallel to the strings 3:27 and 4:05 see how his thumb is free to make more free risha or more tight depending on the sound he wishes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69hjuVv5dzs


Thanks for your replies very helpfull, I get your point, it's the same for your risha technique in Anouar Brahim "Raf Raf" (One of my favorite area in Tunisia).
In Raf Raf, it seems that y have down/up picking, but in your downwards, the pick ends its run on the next string (rest-stroke) - or it's freestroke ?

R.


Actually I still don't master those different technique, and still need some work on my right hand.
I explain you the main idea, then it needs time and practice. I would say for raf raf a more arabice right hand, holding the risha free, with a hand not parallel to the strings to accentuate down stroke when beginning the sentence.
Another thing I play wrong in this video is the base line. Actually it should be a malfuf but I realize later.
I mean counting rather speedly:
ONE two three - ONE two three - ONE two
accentuating the ONE in big letters, accentuate notes, down strokes
Hope this helps

Brian Prunka - 9-1-2015 at 07:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  
Brian, thank you very much for your observations. Maybe my advice is ill-placed since I didn't realise I was mixing my stroke styles. As I said earlier, this has never been pointed out to me so I assume it's not so much of an issue?

I was not aware about the Kevsir Hanım piece which I have been practising for a while now, over a year. Could you point out the parts of the piece where it's easier to change with an upstroke? I'll experiment and try to find them too.


My personal experience is that being aware of the rest stroke and developing a strong and consistent rest stroke is essential to the development of most players, for a variety of reasons. While a free stroke is necessary for fast playing and certain complex picking patterns, the underlying mechanics are largely similar to the rest stroke—from my perspective, the rest stroke creates the foundation for the more advanced techniques. This was my experience as a student and has been my experience in teaching as well—building a solid foundation with the rest stroke has improved the overall right-hand technique of all my students.

It 's likely that some people develop these skills without deliberately working on it, either through unconscious imitation or just a natural intuition. Those individuals are few and far between, in my experience, but also may be over-represented in the ranks of professional performers and teachers. Paradoxically, their innate facility may lead to their being less than ideal teachers, since they may not be able to communicate something that they never thought about in their own development.

Why don't you write out the picking you have been using for the longa and your current tempo, and send it to me, and I'll offer you some alternatives. I don't want to derail this thread too much. brianprunka/at/brianprunka.com

rajeh - 9-1-2015 at 01:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  
Brian, thank you very much for your observations. Maybe my advice is ill-placed since I didn't realise I was mixing my stroke styles. As I said earlier, this has never been pointed out to me so I assume it's not so much of an issue?

I was not aware about the Kevsir Hanım piece which I have been practising for a while now, over a year. Could you point out the parts of the piece where it's easier to change with an upstroke? I'll experiment and try to find them too.


My personal experience is that being aware of the rest stroke and developing a strong and consistent rest stroke is essential to the development of most players, for a variety of reasons. While a free stroke is necessary for fast playing and certain complex picking patterns, the underlying mechanics are largely similar to the rest stroke—from my perspective, the rest stroke creates the foundation for the more advanced techniques. This was my experience as a student and has been my experience in teaching as well—building a solid foundation with the rest stroke has improved the overall right-hand technique of all my students.

It 's likely that some people develop these skills without deliberately working on it, either through unconscious imitation or just a natural intuition. Those individuals are few and far between, in my experience, but also may be over-represented in the ranks of professional performers and teachers. Paradoxically, their innate facility may lead to their being less than ideal teachers, since they may not be able to communicate something that they never thought about in their own development.

Why don't you write out the picking you have been using for the longa and your current tempo, and send it to me, and I'll offer you some alternatives. I don't want to derail this thread too much. brianprunka/at/brianprunka.com


Thanks Brian for yr advice, any training video you recommend (mean slowly training video ). To explain the above. R.

Brian Prunka - 9-1-2015 at 01:36 PM

Sorry, I don't know of a video that explains it. It is very difficult to capture in a video, it typically requires demonstration from multiple angles and close observation of the student's attempts in order to refine the movement.

Walidk - 5-17-2016 at 12:12 AM



It 's likely that some people develop these skills without deliberately working on it, either through unconscious imitation or just a natural intuition. Those individuals are few and far between, in my experience, but also may be over-represented in the ranks of professional performers and teachers. Paradoxically, their innate facility may lead to their being less than ideal teachers, since they may not be able to communicate something that they never thought about in their own development.

I like the way Brian approached this aspect of learning. I find the idea of "unconscious imitation" to be very useful and sometimes powerful in learning new things and advancing your technique. Believe it or not, when I listen to master players, I enjoy a lot (like most of us) what is being played and sometimes without first understanding or fully dissecting the detail of the technique used. Nevertheless, I find myself later during practice "unconsciously" repeating (or trying to) what I heard. It may take months before mastering a specific technique, and obviously after thousands of repetitions to get comfortable with it and use it "unconsciously" during playing. To me it is very helpful.
Still, as a beginner, learning risha techniques from a teacher is the best way to advance and also the safest way..because, when we learn something the wrong way, it will be very difficult to get rid of it.