Mike's Oud Forums

Sempat Der Bedrossian & fils 1955 oud

mbira - 9-3-2015 at 06:08 AM

Hi I am new to this forum. I have an old oud that I bought many years ago thinking I would fix it and learn to play but that hasn't happened. I would like to find out more about it and if it is worth anything in it's current condition. It has a label in ti that says Sempat Der Bedrossian & fils and a penciled in # 1900 that i think may be the date made. there is also penciled in the # 7955.
I will try to take some good photos to post. I have some not so good photos and i will try to attach the best now. I have someone local who may be interested in buying this oud. thanks for any help.

[file]36572[/file] [file]36573[/file] [file]36574[/file] [file]36575[/file]

Alfaraby - 9-3-2015 at 08:29 AM

Welcome aboard.
I beleave this is an oud made by Garabett Derpetrossian, the son of Simpat. The year should be 1955 not 1900, first because Simpat flew to Damascus in 1915 after the Armenian holocaust, and second because the label, though very poor quality, looks like Garabed's with his oud. I'm not sure, but I think he wasn't even born back in 1900 ( passed away on January 30, 2009) ! Third, Simpat didn't make such bowls; and forth, the big rosette is not his either.
As to the oud, I'd wait to see better shots in order to try and evaluate it's condition. I can only advise right now that it should be hospitalized immediately in an oud emergency room :)

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

mbira - 9-3-2015 at 10:39 AM

thanks Alfaraby , the 7 could be a 1 in the other number so that would be 1955. it say Beirut on the label. I will try to take some better photos soon... any suggestions of important angles and such would be helpful.

Alfaraby - 9-3-2015 at 01:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mbira  
Beirut on the label
any suggestions of important angles

Beirut. Right ! Here's a similar label from 1955 .
For more of Garabet's ouds, see here: http://www.varjouds.com./berossian.htm
Angles ? soundboard closeups, bowl 2 sides, purfling, bridge, action, fingerboard, tail block, peghouse 3 sides, rosettes, nut, pegs and general look back and face.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]36606[/file]

mbira - 9-3-2015 at 06:21 PM

That label says 1900 too. What is that #?

Brian Prunka - 9-3-2015 at 07:38 PM

The Arabic numeral for 5 looks like a zero. It says 1955 in Arabic numbers.

mbira - 9-4-2015 at 05:19 AM

thanks and please excuse my ignorance. I will try to take better photos today and post.

SamirCanada - 9-4-2015 at 06:20 AM

in the condition it is in... its an extensive rebuilding project. Best done by someone who knows how to work with "saddaf" mother of pearl etc...

I am not sure where you are located but its something I could do if you are interested. I am based in Ottawa, Canada.

Brian Prunka - 9-4-2015 at 06:22 AM

By the way, those look like they could be nice old rishas in the strings—don't lose them!

mbira - 9-4-2015 at 05:42 PM

HI SamirCanada, I am interested in selling it to someone who would rebuild it. I had thought about learning oud - that's why I bought it - but that isn't going to happen, saz is enough of a challenge. So I hope to get an idea of it's worth in the condition it is in. I didn't get the better photos taken yet but will in a few days.
[quote=107916&tid=15976&author=SamirCanada]in the condition it is in... its an extensive rebuilding project. Best done by someone who knows how to work with "saddaf" mother of pearl etc...

I am not sure where you are located but its something I could do if you are interested. I am based in Ottawa, Canada.
[/ rquote]

Brian Prunka - 9-4-2015 at 07:01 PM

I will say this: it is better to sell it to a someone who will have it restored to their liking than to invest in restoring it yourself with the intent to sell. Anyone with an interest in an old, reasonably historic instrument is going to have their own preferences and philosophy regarding restoration. If you restore it yourself you are likely limiting the pool of buyers and are unlikely to recoup your repair investment, as others have discovered.

Someone like Samir, who has the skills to restore it himself would be a likely candidate.

Mehran - 9-5-2015 at 02:44 AM

Absolute beauty. Can easily see this one being fixed up and sounding lovely.

mbira - 9-6-2015 at 03:49 PM

Thanks Brian Prunka, your advice sounds wise. I have had some interested via private msgs from oud restorers too. But I am not sure of it's worth so need to get some better photos posted and maybe some folks here could give me an idea of price.

thanks again
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
I will say this: it is better to sell it to a someone who will have it restored to their liking than to invest in restoring it yourself with the intent to sell. Anyone with an interest in an old, reasonably historic instrument is going to have their own preferences and philosophy regarding restoration. If you restore it yourself you are likely limiting the pool of buyers and are unlikely to recoup your repair investment, as others have discovered.

Someone like Samir, who has the skills to restore it himself would be a likely candidate.

mbira - 9-6-2015 at 03:51 PM

Can anyone give me an idea of how much an oud by this maker and of this age in excellent or restored condition would be worth?

Brian Prunka - 9-6-2015 at 04:34 PM

My opinion:

This oud, if it was in excellent condition, played well and had a great sound, and had never needed substantial restoration, could be worth a few thousand dollars. Probably not more than $3500 unless it was a truly exceptional example of his work.

It's impossible to project what it would be worth after restoration. It is not worthwhile to restore it unless you are yourself a luthier or intend to keep it and play it yourself. If you are going to sell it, better to sell it as is.

As a guess, an absolutely perfect (whatever that might mean) restoration might find it worth about $2000, give or take $150 or so. But again, the problem is that what you or a restorer thinks is the right approach may not be what the buyer thinks.

I have seen, over and over again, people attempt to restore an instrument in order to sell it. In almost all cases, they do not make back more than what they spent to restore it, in some cases taking a loss.

For reference, here is our own Dr. Oud, selling a fully restored Nahat, older than yours, for $2500. A Nahat is far, far more desirable than a Bedrossian.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=15725

mbira - 9-8-2015 at 07:21 AM

So I took new photos hope these show more. Please let me know if I missed anything or more detail is needed.
I am having trouble uploading as it seems the photos are to big to load more than one at a time. Is there an easier way to upload photos here???

[file]36664[/file] [file]36662[/file]

mbira - 9-8-2015 at 07:26 AM

well I will try again to load some photos

mbira - 9-8-2015 at 07:29 AM

and a few more...

SamirCanada - 9-8-2015 at 08:19 AM

oh man... that's in rough shape.
I mean, its not an impossible restoration but the large crack in the ribs, the missing inlays and high action make it almost like a salvage.
It needs several hours of work, probably 80+ hours & materials. The longest part would be replicating and repairing the inlays.

only you can decide how much this oud is worth but it will need a lot to repair it appropriately.

Brian, I am not allowed to buy any more ouds. I was only offering my expertise to repair it.

jdowning - 9-8-2015 at 11:50 AM

That looks like a nice traditional woodworker's bench the oud is sitting on for the original images. Are you a luthier or an experienced fine woodworker who has the skill but not the time or interest to undertake a restoration yourself?

Full face, side and end images - taken at a distance to minimise optical distortion and then cropped to size would be of interest - as well as more details of the damaged tiles around the sound board. Also details of the bridge and plectrum guard (that appears to be separating from the sound board?).

Are the plain strings nylon or gut?

Alfaraby - 9-8-2015 at 12:49 PM

Gentlemen !
Let us be realistic. Does this oud worth an investment of 80 +- hours repair ? It's Garabet's oud after all. Not a big deal, with due respect.

I have seen and tried several Sempat's ouds, that sounded and felt very convincing, but never had the same effect with his son's ... both RIP. It seems that Garabet was more fond of inlays and finishes, but never focused on sound. Therefore all his ouds sounded almost the same, often very .. aaa .... well, I don't want to sound so prejudiced.

Here's a Garabet's oud that was offered for sale for 2500$ somewhere, sometime ago. Can't recall. It looks in a perfect original condition, not restored nor repaired. The label says made in Beirut while the rosette says in Damascus. It seems that Garabet worked for sometime in Lebanon, but soon returned to Syria, died in 2009 and was burried in Damascus.

Pls pay attention: This oud has the serial number 8125 while the oud in issue is numbered 7850, both are from 1955. Was Garabed capable of making 275 ouds per year ? Well, this should be detected. Something went wrong in one of them.

Briefly, I would make general overall repairs on the outside and hang it on a wall. It shall look fantastic

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]36698[/file] [file]36700[/file] [file]36706[/file] [file]36708[/file] [file]36710[/file] [file]36712[/file] [file]36714[/file] [file]36716[/file]


mbira : Pls change the topic to 1955

mbira - 9-8-2015 at 02:10 PM

Hi jdowning, no that is not my bench, it belongs to a local luthier who would have the skills to restore it and he may be interested it doing just that.
I have a bag with some of the missing inlays ... just have to find it.
The strings appear to be nylon.
I will try to take the requested photos tomorrow. thanks for your response.
Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
That looks like a nice traditional woodworker's bench the oud is sitting on for the original images. Are you a luthier or an experienced fine woodworker who has the skill but not the time or interest to undertake a restoration yourself?

Full face, side and end images - taken at a distance to minimise optical distortion and then cropped to size would be of interest - as well as more details of the damaged tiles around the sound board. Also details of the bridge and plectrum guard (that appears to be separating from the sound board?).

Are the plain strings nylon or gut?

mbira - 9-8-2015 at 02:14 PM

Yes it has seen better days. I believe I have some of the missing inlays. Thanks for your input on what it would need.
Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
oh man... that's in rough shape.
I mean, its not an impossible restoration but the large crack in the ribs, the missing inlays and high action make it almost like a salvage.
It needs several hours of work, probably 80+ hours & materials. The longest part would be replicating and repairing the inlays.

only you can decide how much this oud is worth but it will need a lot to repair it appropriately.

Brian, I am not allowed to buy any more ouds. I was only offering my expertise to repair it.

mbira - 9-8-2015 at 02:37 PM

You never know this might be his best one.
Where did you see that serial # on my oud?
Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
Gentlemen !
Let us be realistic. Does this oud worth an investment of 80 +- hours repair ? It's Garabet's oud after all. Not a big deal, with due respect.

I have seen and tried several Sempat's ouds, that sounded and felt very convincing, but never had the same effect with his son's ... both RIP. It seems that Garabet was more fond of inlays and finishes, but never focused on sound. Therefore all his ouds sounded almost the same, often very .. aaa .... well, I don't want to sound so prejudiced.

Here's a Garabet's oud that was offered for sale for 2500$ somewhere, sometime ago. Can't recall. It looks in a perfect original condition, not restored nor repaired. The label says made in Beirut while the rosette says in Damascus. It seems that Garabet worked for sometime in Lebanon, but soon returned to Syria, died in 2009 and was burried in Damascus.

Pls pay attention: This oud has the serial number 8125 while the oud in issue is numbered 7850, both are from 1955. Was Garabed capable of making 275 ouds per year ? Well, this should be detected. Something went wrong in one of them.

Briefly, I would make general overall repairs on the outside and hang it on a wall. It shall look fantastic

Yours indeed
Alfaraby




mbira : Pls change the topic to 1955

Brian Prunka - 9-8-2015 at 02:55 PM

Arabic numerals that look (sort of) like v^o. = 7850

I am not so pessimistic as our friend Alfaraby, but the damage is far worse than I had thought from the original photos. It would be nice to see such a beautiful old oud restored, but it will be a big undertaking.

mbira - 9-9-2015 at 03:25 PM

here are more photos as requested please let me know if I didn't capture what you wanted.

mbira - 9-9-2015 at 03:28 PM

details

Brian Prunka - 9-9-2015 at 04:27 PM

Those rishas appear to be eagle quills, nice find. Don't let customs or fish and wildlife see them!

mbira - 9-10-2015 at 07:49 AM

Maybe those are worth more than the oud? haha
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Those rishas appear to be eagle quills, nice find. Don't let customs or fish and wildlife see them!