Mike's Oud Forums

A misunderstanding solved.

Lute - 10-13-2015 at 02:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  


2nd experience was more strange. A turkish tuned oud i ordered in 2009, i received with delayed by dhl after many message, really instance, to sold me a turkish braced with varnished. I always wondered if it was an instrument he kept on the bench, maybe a customer didn't want. Anyway, not a big deal. Once the package opened, it was a long fingerboard oud..i asked for a short fingerboard oud. And a buzzing which occured on the 3rd strings NOT from the fingerboard but I never understood from where it came exactly. It comes and go until nowadays. Not too loud and not so disturbing. I wrote him about this 2 point...just got a despising answer explaining me i din't know how a turkish oud should sound...i followed also lesson with a turkish teacher !!

3rd one was more recently around 2012 and turned terrible, really very disappointing. I took directly at his workshop a reduced price instrument i tried while passing there and which i liked really very much.
Once back in France...Bump ! The soundboard just bumped resulting in a total unplayable instrument higher than the first position. This came from a very, too much flexible soundboard. 1.3 mm thickness with the usual very thin Turunz bracing. THe oud just cannot stand any degree of humidity higher than the stable 50% of Istanbul. I made a video to show Mr Faruk, received kind apologize and he promised he would changed it. In the video I was giving measurement to explain that it was really the soundboard bumping and not a matter of fingerboard thickness. We agreed i make a try with a local luthier to sand down the fingerboard to try to correct the issue. It doesn't wotk of course but Mr Faruk was still convinced it was a problem that would be solved by sanding the fingerboard. Just as if he cannot trust another professional of luthery.
We agreed by email on an exchange, I made the trip advising him of my travelling. Once there..No reduced priced oud ready for an exchange. And wait...What you mean by an exchange ? The oud is dirt and blabla bla...this oud doesn't have any problem (humidity in my area at this period 75%..Istanbul 50%...this sensible oud make Mr Faruk think i was lying ..Check back the video in his office..He didn't even looked at it 30 seconds). Finally no exchange no refund no repair. Just nothing. I felt i have been duped . He just changed his mind. There come the point of the business thing. I agree with the one who write before ther is a prepaiement Turunz and a postpaiement Turunz. This was not a matter of finishing and I could just hang the oud on the wall while returning to France.

Fortunately a friend introduced me to another luthier in Istanbul who accurately assume the job by opening the soundboard and take off some wood to force concavity to the soundboard. This was needed in addition to the sanding of the fingerboard that had been leveled to the level of the soundboard. This luthier was also absolutely not surprised by this problem he met several time in his experience. I will not give his name because it's not a matter of saying this one is better than this one or blabla anything we don't mind in this subject.

That's a pity. This is not the Mr Turunz I met in 2008. The one who was listening the needs of his customers


Quote: Originally posted by Ferahfeza  

I sent a message to Faruk on Facebook a couple of days ago, telling him that there is a thread on Mike's forum, which concerns him directly, and suggesting him to reply to this thread. He saw it, but didn't reply to me!

So, at least we can be sure that he knows about this thread. Let's see what happens.


It seems that there is no after sale ''contingency plans'' with Faruk! Also, as suz_i_dil wrote above, he went to a luthier to repair Faruk's oud problems when he was in Turkey, this is absolutely appalling, what a ridiculous customer care that was and still is! It really made me think twice about buying an oud from any makers! Makers should follow up and solve their ouds issues! A good maker should (must really) maintain his reputation after the sale, it is very important!

I was hoping to see Faruk's statement in this thread, for his sake!? If he does not, will it be fair to conclude that, he is not interested in customer service after sale, and that customers should go and repair Faruk's ouds problems elsewhere, or if they get the wrong Ouds, they will be on their own!!


Mike - 10-13-2015 at 07:44 AM

lute....Did you not post this on Sunday? Why is it magically appearing to be a new post today?
I warn you...please be careful what you do on these forums. If you want to continue to be a member here, don't piss me off.

Lute - 10-13-2015 at 08:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Mike  
lute....Did you not post this on Sunday? Why is it magically appearing to be a new post today?
I warn you...please be careful what you do on these forums. If you want to continue to be a member here, don't piss me off.


I deleted the old post by mistake instead of just editing. Luckily I had a copy so I re posted it.

I might ask you to delete my membership as I do not like the words you have used above, very poor selection of words!

Mike - 10-13-2015 at 09:35 AM

are you asking me or are you saying you might ask me to delete your membership? you are lucky i am even asking you to clarify. i should just go ahead and delete your membership and all your posts. i don't need you to tell me about a poor selection of words. and don't think i don't understand what you are trying to do by re posting your post today. there were no edits made to the post. you are not talking to an idiot.

Mike - 10-13-2015 at 12:37 PM

if you say you were editing the post, why were there no edits? i don't need to waste my time to ask you anything first, and i understood you better than you think. your backhanded compliment above is quite telling. you couldn't resist, could you?

you say the word. believe me when i tell you that i will lose no sleep whatsoever if lute is no longer a member on my forums. so i ask you one last time...do you want me to delete your membership and your posts? a simple yes or no answer will do.

Mike - 10-15-2015 at 06:27 AM

Everybody...say good bye to lute.

Doc139 - 10-15-2015 at 07:08 AM

To me this seems to be a unnecessary and very silly fight between two grown up human beings, I can't understand why this post had to end up with so much aggressiv words from both sides.
No matter if one of them was wrong and the other guy right - both are loosing at the end (in my eyes). I am really sorry for that.
Our love for music should unite us and not divide.
Alexander

Lysander - 10-15-2015 at 12:50 PM

Well, this is interesting. I was one of the many who lurked in the other thread but chose not to chime in, chiefly because I didn't feel it was my business to add anything.

However, this thread is a different kettle of fish. I've been coming to this forum for over two years and I've always been impressed by how it didn't go the way of others by having trolling, flaming or petty spats every other half page. But we are human after all and these things do happen. I have to admit to being quite confused as to the root of this quarrel though. Mike, the comment I am mainly referring to is this one:

and don't think i don't understand what you are trying to do by re posting your post today

I, for one, don't understand what he was trying to do by reposting it. I don't have all the information and I have not been privy to a lot of discussion off-forum but I feel this comment holds the key to understanding the argument. So what was he trying to do by reposting the old comment? I feel that this can be openly discussed now that we're all here.

Microber - 10-15-2015 at 01:07 PM

I agree with you Alexander.
I also would like to add that I understand nothing at the reason of the quarrel.
Sorry Mike. Your anger is completely incomprehensible for me.
Maybe I'm not intelligent enough. But in this case, I feel like I prefer to be stupid... and in peace.

Robert

Microber - 10-15-2015 at 01:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  

Mike, the comment I am mainly referring to is this one:
and don't think i don't understand what you are trying to do by re posting your post today


Precisely the same sentence for me, Lysander.

Jason - 10-15-2015 at 02:14 PM

As an outsider looking in, I believe the implication was that Lute was trying to bump the thread and keep it active but not really add anything new to the discussion. That isn't necessarily my opinion, but that is how I interpreted Mike's comment.

Eric Stern Music - 10-15-2015 at 10:13 PM

I've been following this closely as well. I would like to say, first of all, that I think a very difficult situation between Faruk Turunz and Dreamz was navigated quite well and I appreciate Mike for stepping in with apt diplomacy. I also appreciated the respectful dialogue that occurred between Mike and Greg and Brian regarding emails. Mike I respect the community you have helped to foster and create SO much with this platform. I have been studying oud now for three and a half years and especially in the beginning of my studies, when I didn't have a teacher, this forum was so helpful and so nurturing. I don't think I could have done it without the forum, seriously. So many answers and resources posted in the FAQ's and so many kind people willing to answer very basic questions (sometimes the same questions over and over!) when someone joins. With all of that said, Mike I was a little traumatized by you sending the boldfaced message to Lute "DON'T PISS ME OFF". I don't really know you but I imagine you to be kind, respectful, and nurturing, and so I can only assume that it was out of character for you, and that Lute really was pissing you off...deeply. But it was threatening and violated the first rule of the forum: "Be tolerant, understanding and respectful of other people's point of view. If you strongly disagree or are upset over another member's posting, simply respond by stating your point of view. Do not criticize, censure or ridicule others for their beliefs, opinions or views. Please also take into account the difficulty many people have in expressing their precise feelings and emotions in a written message." In the end, it's your forum, you can do whatever you want, of course, but I respectfully, VERY respectfully hold you to the standards of the community you have created. And if I am wrong, or out of line, than I apologize. In the end this is just a blip in the life of an online community of brethren who are deeply committed to not only the most wonderful of instruments, but to peace and connection through the music it creates.

Mike - 10-16-2015 at 09:51 AM

Please re-read the third paragraph of my last post in this thread. That entire paragraph was mainly directed at lute, why I was a “little” upset, and should explain what he was trying to do. There’s no way he can convince me otherwise, no matter what harebrained explanation he has.

He claims to have been editing his post, but accidentally deleted it. Then he “luckily” found a copy of it and re posted it. Then he re posted it with no edits. If people are saving copies of their posts for Mike’s Oud Forums on their hard drives, I suggest finding a hobby, spending more time with your family and friends; heck…even watch some tv.

Look guys, I had just spent an entire week trying to mediate a resolution between FT and D. I didn’t do it because I wanted a cookie or for anybody’s approval. Sparing you of all the details, lute almost derailed a week’s worth of effort and over a hundred emails going back and forth with his post. Apparently, he thought it was so important to post it for a second time when he didn’t get any response to it the first time. To be clear, I didn’t have a problem with the post when he wrote it the first time. I didn’t tell him anything after he posted it last Sunday. I didn’t even tell him anything after his “Helo Dreamz, any updates?” post. I had an issue with his tactic of deleting it, and re posting it 3 days later for no other reason than to bump the thread. Did I overreact? Probably…

The only reason I didn’t deleted his membership and all his posts is because I was at Disneyland yesterday with my wife and kids. I split the thread early in the morning before we left, and was planning on doing it when we got home. During that time: 1) You guys have come to his defense. 2) Greg also emailed me to help calm me down. 3) I’ve had some time to settle down.

1) You all coming to his defense is commendable, and that is one of the main reasons why I continue to run this forum. There is a community feel to it that I like. That is because of you all. Thank you Eric for also pointing that out above.

2) Greg: What can I say about that guy? I know he doesn’t want me to do this, but he is another reason why I continue to make these forums available. He keeps me focused. BTW, he too was invaluable in resolving the issue with FT and D. He did it behind the scenes, as I was bouncing ideas back and forth with him the whole time. He too came to the defense of lute, and that really made me rethink this. In a nutshell, the main point he made to me was that even though he too understood what lute was trying to do, he did it without knowledge of what was happening behind the scenes.

3) Settling down: I guess the Magic Kingdom has that sort of influence on people. But seriously, I admit, I may have overreacted or at least may have used stronger than necessary words. I see that now. Alexander, Lysander, Robert, Jason, and Eric…thank you guys for your posts above. Also, thanks to the few guys who emailed and U2U’d me privately. I felt I owed it to you guys to explain myself a little better. I apologize if I offended you guys.

In retrospect, lute’s post (or re post I should say) indirectly aided in the resolution between Faruk and Dreamz; just not the way he thought it did. As noted, during the mediation between Faruk and Dreamz, I asked D not to post again on the thread as it wasn’t going to help his cause any. He listened. He was even asked for an update and still did not reply, and I used that to show Faruk that D was really only interested in a resolution.

In conclusion, I could very easily delete this thread and be done with it. I’m not going to do that. I probably overreacted a little, and I own up to that mistake. I’m also not going to delete or ban lute. If he wants to leave, that’s up to him. He just needs to stop trying to save face and convince me he did not re post for the sole reason of bumping the thread. If he doesn’t want to, that’s up to him. As far as I’m concerned, I’m done with this.

Eric Stern Music - 10-16-2015 at 10:13 AM

What an honorable and admirable response, Mike! In light of the near-derailment of your diplomatic efforts your "pissed off" response is very understandable and in the end you and this forum outshine any small misstep you may have made, as far as I am concerned. Bravo, Mike, Bravo. :applause:

Mike - 10-16-2015 at 02:43 PM

Thank you Eric! Much appreciated bud. Hey, is your wife still running for cover when you play your Oud? Hehe

By far one of my all time favorite threads on the forums!

Eric Stern Music - 10-16-2015 at 03:32 PM

Oh man...no. Soon after that thread I started lessons. I've gotten good enough now that she doesn't run. She says she's able to block it out. No blender required.

Lute - 10-18-2015 at 01:38 PM

Dear Alexander, Lysander, Robert. Jason, and Eric.. Thank you for your valuable posts on this thread.

Dear, Greg, Samir and the rest of the team, I was annoyed when I wrote my last post. So, I did not have the chance to thank you. Thank you for always being there for us, your helps and efforts are priceless.

For other threads or posts in the past: I would like to thanks all members, who have always explained things to me with patience, even when my brain was rusty to see their valuable points. Among those are, Brian Prunka, Omar Al Mufti...............................

For other threads or posts in the past: I apologise for all members that I did not understand their points due to my lack of the correct knowledge at a time, or for my limited budget. Among those are, Mehran, suz_i_dil ..........................

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Mike, the post was deleted by mistake! Believe it or not it is up to you! I did not try to convince you! I said it was made by error, and it was! I do not have a problem to say if I did it on purpose! When I wrote to explain what has happened I did not pay enough attention to details. Because, I was annoyed with the way you have addressed me. Also knowing that I wanted to delete my membership, as you seemed so fixed at the time! I thought it will be pointless to carry on explaining, you have refused my explanation from the beginning!

First correction, I said ‘’edited’’ I meant minor spelling corrections. It was more of words corrections and minor checking and also undone some of the red highlights on some words! So, none could have noticed the difference from the original post! Sometimes I go back to the post to check if there are mistakes, or if it is clear. Perhaps I need another hobby as you suggested, although I have four and do not have the time!

Second correction, I said I ‘’copy’’, I had another tab in my browser opened by luck and the original post was there, the whole page! I could not believe that I had another tab opened with the original post was (looking back at it now, that was not ‘’lucky’’ really), so I copied it and pasted it, changed the minor mistakes and saved it, that was that. When I re posted it, there were no posts, only mine was the oldest, so I thought no harm done. Then, Mike came down storming at me, and it all went rocky!

Mike, even if I bumped the post on purpose, you could have explained to me anything you wish. When I said you could have asked me, you wrote you do not need to waste your time by asking me! I felt hopeless and I did not understand!

On the main post, Faruk did not respond to Dreamz while most of the resolutions works were behind the scene, I did not know that! I was hoping to see Dreams getting a respond, and Faruk’s indicating some assurances, maybe I was optimistic! Those were my intentions with all my posts. You and Greg were working on new regulations for the site, it is important I understand. I thought, perfect, but what about Dreamz? For a while things went quite. So I took the initiative and asked Dreamz for updates, while you and your team on the other hand have been working hard to reach a resolution behind the scene. I did not know that too!

It will be a shame to see Faruk’s important area of his business is not taken care of, especially when his customers are desperate for changes! I am sure that he hates me by now! Perhaps it would be better if he dislike one person and make positive changes for many!


To sum up,

Mike, I do not mind if you do believe me or not. My conscious was and still is clear, and that is important to me. You should not think my comments or opinions were inflammatory! Because, mine were to serves two purposes, 1- to help Dreamz, 2- for Faruk’s to notice that others have concerns, and do not wish to have a similar experience!

I have not asked you for an apology! Because, I truly believe you are a good and generous person. Thank you for your patience in the past, even when I drove all of you mad at some point, you have stayed cool. Furthermore, thank you for helping Dreamz and Faruk, just like you have done so in the past with many members. Also, thank you for making me feel an important member of the forums, by endlessly demonstrating that you do whatever is necessary to support each member without hesitations. Looking back at the whole thing, I can only see how hard you have worked on FT and DZ to reach a resolution, and for that you deserve a tap on the shoulder, well done and thank you.

Mike - 10-18-2015 at 05:08 PM

I'm glad this is behind us now. If anybody escalated it, it was me. For that I'm sorry. Like I said, I've had time to chill out a bit. Happy to have you as a member of the forums.

Lute - 10-20-2015 at 03:21 AM

I'm glad too. Please delete the whole thread.