Mike's Oud Forums

LEON ISTANBULI OUD MYSTERY

Alfaraby - 10-22-2015 at 02:58 PM

In Leon Istanbuli's oud I found this mystery on the tail block !
I tried my best to figure out what it might be, but failed. I'm lost !
What do you think about it ?

Looking at the label, any idea what the oud age might be ?
Who is really this Lion Istanbuli whom we've been reading his name for years, beside being active in Beirut ? His father was a luthier (I forgot his name). Who was he ?

Thank you

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]37206[/file] [file]37208[/file]

mavrothis - 10-23-2015 at 12:40 PM

Wasn't he Armenian? Could the handwritten script on the bottom of the label be Armenian?

The pin sheet is probably just from a newspaper or magazine, right? I've seen old ouds before with magazine or newspaper strips used as lining paper for the ribs.

Ninou - 10-23-2015 at 12:46 PM

Hello Alfaraby,

First of all I thank you for your post that concerned my previus post about Nahat Oud.
I couldn't take any decision alone, so I asked few persons to help among them Wissam Joubran.
when I was in his atelier, he mentioned this name "Lion Istanbuli" and I think he has information about him...
You can contact him, he is very kind and sure will help.
Good luck;)

suz_i_dil - 10-23-2015 at 01:09 PM

Regarding the image of the neck block it doesn't seems to have been chosen by luck. I bet there is a kind of metal pin behind the paper ! Maybe x rays would solve the question or just seeking what is the exact product of the ad, hercule unbendable pin !
Regarding others questions I don't have any information about. Curious to know more about

bulerias1981 - 10-23-2015 at 01:37 PM

The ad is on top of the paper strips, so obviously it was done at some point post bowl construction. my speculation is that it's not from the maker but maybe from a later repair. Some people exercise their sense of humor when it comes to this, for example, Najib Shaheen who has been known to put photos of naked women in ouds, and even a photo of a radical mullah from Iran in a rabbi's oud!!! :)

While I have a good sense of humor this is not my practice with repairs. But the reason why I believe it was done during a repair is that usually a maker, after so many hours of making an instrument wouldn't want to put a goofy picture inside their oud, especially crooked the way it is, which is probably because it was placed that way with the hand awkwardly through the soundhole.

But cool post, I like it. I usually find a lot of dust balls in old ouds, which is a collection that builds up over time.

Alfaraby - 10-23-2015 at 01:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis  
Wasn't he Armenian?
Could the handwritten script on the bottom of the label be Armenian?
Yes dear. Both Armenian
The Arabic script says:
استانبوللي عودجي لئون أوسطة نومرو 170 سوق المعرض بيروت
Luthier Lion Istanbuli Usta Number 170 Fair Market Beirut

(No date).

1.Could anybody determine the year according to the serial number ?
2.In what year range was he active in Beirut, or elsewhere ?
3.Whose son was he ?
This's a call to all Lion's owners to post their labels so we may launch a reliable database about this maker.
ALAMI ? You've got one, or at least had !
Quote: Originally posted by Ninou  
Wissam Joubran:
when I was in his atelier, he mentioned this name "Lion Istanbuli" and I think he has information about him. You can contact him, he is very kind and sure will help.

Yes indeed

Thank you all
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

jdowning - 10-23-2015 at 02:33 PM

As far as the 'Hercules Pin Sheet' label is concerned, John Vergara's analysis is likely close to the truth and would account for the crooked placement on the face of the neck block. Otherwise there would seem to be no reason for paper reinforcement of the neck block?

Paper pins were strong sharp pins - not easily bent like their cousins in the clothing industry - used to pin sheets of paper together - a function served more usually today by the 'trombone' shaped paper clip. They are still manufactured and are sold in boxes but at one time came contained in less costly paper packets (a.k.a 'sheets') as was the case with this 'Hercules' brand.

adamgood - 10-23-2015 at 07:13 PM

Fun!

I don't know if anyone has beat me to this but the image with Hercules trying to break a pinsheet (whatever that is??) truly looks like lower Manhattan (don't you think Mav?). That's the Battery in the lower left. Interesting that there's only one bridge which if this is historically accurate and not a play on fiction would be the Brooklyn Bridge. The Manhattan bridge is missing in the image, that bridge construction was completed in 1912 (wikipedia tells me).

Whatever you want to make of that!

Adam

bulerias1981 - 10-23-2015 at 07:40 PM

Wow, just noticed NYC as adamgood pointed out. This is not relevant to Al Faraby's post however that area shown in the photo by Battery park, Washington St, Rector St. was the old little Syria. Here's some information on that neighborhood, but it's pretty interesting because Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian (mostly Christians) moved to that area from the late 1880's (fleeing the tyranny of the oppressive Ottoman empire) until the 1940's when they were pushed out due to the construction of the Battery tunnel connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn by land. There was a record shop there selling Um Kalthoum, and even a Lebanese restaurant. There was even an oud maker there (don't have his name at the moment) It should also be noted that this neighborhood is just 2 blocks away from Wall St. and just a couple blocks away from the world trade center
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Syria,_Manhattan

A close friend of mine lives upstairs from this old shop in a now much more modern and fancy building!

bulerias1981 - 10-23-2015 at 07:44 PM

Here is a photo of an Istanbuli oud from Dr. Jonathan Varjabedian's website (http://www.varjouds.com/) where he shares data on many Armenian ouds, I sometimes use this site as a reference when coming across Armenian instruments. I will try to get information on the label. Ironically a friend is bringing over a Leon Istabuli oud for a new nut tomorrow morning, so I'll get the necessary information off of the label as far as serial number and the year and share it here if it's of any use.

adamgood - 10-23-2015 at 08:16 PM

John, good of you to bring up Little Syria in NYC! At some point I know I watched a very interesting documentary about the neighborhood which before that was completely unaware of! Can't remember if it was on youtube or PBS...

Ok so who'll be using "The Hercules Pinsheet" for a band name?

ALAMI - 10-24-2015 at 12:34 AM

The oud posted by John is mine. Unfortunately I know very little about it.
Leon (Levon) Stanbuli was an Armenian oud maker who came from Damascus to Beirut sometimes in the 1940s, his father was also a luthier.
Leon Workshop was located in Beirut - Basta area and his ouds have a great reputation. Georges Abyad played one of his ouds in the Takashim recording and It seems that the personal oud of Feyrouz was also made by him.
The oud in the above picture is large: 63cm stringlength bowl 52x38cm 21cm depth, here is the label, it has no mention of the year

suz_i_dil - 10-24-2015 at 10:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  
The ad is on top of the paper strips, so obviously it was done at some point post bowl construction. my speculation is that it's not from the maker but maybe from a later repair. Some people exercise their sense of humor when it comes to this, for example, Najib Shaheen who has been known to put photos of naked women in ouds, and even a photo of a radical mullah from Iran in a rabbi's oud!!! :)



Funny ! I didn't knew about this.

bulerias1981 - 10-24-2015 at 03:00 PM

Here's the photo I promised. Didn't know it was going to be in such bad shape, can't gather much from it..

Alfaraby - 10-24-2015 at 03:51 PM

Thanks guys
In order to make more action, here's another label of our friend Leon Usta from 1926 in my friend's oud with the SAME NUMERO (number) 170 !
What is this ?
It might be the number of the shop at the market, or the oud style number (like Sukkar 212, 107 ...whatever).
If not, so one label is fake. On the other hand they both have almost the same handwriting; and on the "third" hand, Leon/ Levon Usta has spelled his name differently in each label. Well, he wasn't native and his name wasn't an Arabic name, so he could have used used different spelling each time. Just a guess.
The third option would be that both labels aren't more than a poor forgery. Well, I doubt it, since both ouds are Leon's originals!
Later on I shall post the photos of the ouds, but let's please focus on the label and the Hercules Pin Sheet

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]37216[/file]

Alfaraby - 10-24-2015 at 04:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  
Here's the photo I promised. Didn't know it was going to be in such bad shape, can't gather much from it


For the first time ever on the web, thanks to John Vergara, we are reading his real name on this label:

LEON COSTANIAN
aka Istanbuli
Oud shop and repair of all music instruments
Beirut, Al Basta street

This means that the Usta we read on the old labels stand for Costa and not for the word Ustaz = master. Costanian = Son of Costa. Another dilemma ?
Thanks John

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

bulerias1981 - 10-24-2015 at 07:48 PM

Good work, now figure this one out... :)

Microber - 10-25-2015 at 02:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  


LEON COSTANIAN
aka Istanbuli
Oud shop and repair of all music instruments
Beirut, Al Basta street

This means that the Usta we read on the old labels stand for Costa and not for the word Ustaz = master. Costanian = Son of Costa. Another dilemma ?
Thanks John


Little nuance in the french words on the label.
It doesn't mention "all music instruments" but only ouds.
Fabrications et réparations des OUDS
Beyrouth Rue Basta, en face él... Bach
Last two words are uncertain.
"En face" means "in front of".

Alfaraby - 10-25-2015 at 04:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  
Good work, now figure this one out :)

Don't challange me John, you know I can :)
Costanian ? what a surprise !

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Alfaraby - 10-31-2015 at 02:56 AM

Leon is still a mystery. Beside the valuable info you've pointed out, nothing much is really known about this outstanding luthier. It's the same old story like other names we keep hearing, while no basic info is actually available within reach.

Dr. Jonathan Varjabedian has listed Leon Istanbuli and Dikran Najarian, among 5 Armenian makers based in Beirut, beside Bedrossian in Damascus and Mattossian in Jerusalem. Here:
http://www.varjouds.com/armenian_oud.htm

In a congress titled: ARMENIANS OF LEBANON: From Past Princesses and Refugees to Present-Day Community that took place at the Haigazian University in Beirut in september 2009, in association with the Armenian Heritage Press of the National Association for Armenian Studies and Research (NAASR), Belmont, MA, USA, Dr. NORA SALMANIAN wrote a paper about "Lebanese-Armenian contributions to the musical and artistic life of Lebanon from 1920 to the present time", in which she stated that early in the 20th century LEON and DIKRAN were the best oud makers in Beirut and their instruments were very sought after . The paper is in French, so I had to be satisfied with the English summery.

Maybe one of our French fellows translate it into English for the benefit of all of us.
Here it is: http://tert.nla.am/archive/HAY%20GIRQ/Ardy/2001-2011/armenians_2009...

For the time being, here's a sound sample of the above Leon's oud in the hands of his former owner or his friend ! It speaks Armenian/Turkish :)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwbUI_YpTFO0ckVORHJ6UURIVnM/view?ts...

Enjoy

More to come the photos of the two 1926 Leon's ouds.

Thank you

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

franck leriche - 10-31-2015 at 10:31 AM

That's a great sounding oud and also great Hüzzam taksimi.:)

Alfaraby - 11-8-2015 at 02:51 PM

Thanks Franck !
Here are the photos of Leon's twin. It seems he was real Istanbulic in his first steps in Beirut, before starting making more Arabic ouds, like Alami's, wasn't he ?
What do you think ?

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]37354[/file] [file]37356[/file] [file]37360[/file] [file]37358[/file]
[file]37364[/file] [file]37362[/file] [file]37366[/file]

hartun - 11-11-2015 at 02:46 PM

Hi everyone. The handwriting on Al Faraby's posted label is in Armenian.

It reads (i have used turkish dotless i to represent the same sound in Armenian, otherwise one has to use confusing letters like "u" - besides this is in a sense turkish written in armenian letters, which is very common)

ıstambo(u)llou Oudjı
Levon Ousda
No. (??) 170 Souk-el-Maatat
Beirut



Levon is the typical Armenian form of the name Leon.

I believe the name should be Levon Gostanian as that's how its written in Armenian on John's label. However, Armenians tend to shuffle between C/K and G.

I think the title of "Usta" is in fact the normal title Usta and not a derivative from Gostanian/Costanian. First of all because i've never heard of the name Costanian being morphed into Usta and secondly because the Armenian label has the name as "Levon Usta", written in Armenian, and Usta is a word Armenians were very familiar with in Turkey.

John's label also has a deal of other information in Armenian. However, the letters are garbled as you can see the label is torn up a bit. I can see references to "repairing" and "musical instruments" It looks like it says after something about repairs, that "We string all types of musical instruments".

hartun - 11-11-2015 at 07:40 PM

Also Gostanian is the typical pronunciation of the name as pronounced by Armenians from Istanbul and most parts of Turkey. And the "C" in the French part could actually be a G as well, as the bottom is cut off.

Of course, it is cognate to the Greek name Costa. Gostan is short for Gostantin = Costantinos.

BTW, Armenians called Istanbul Gostant'noubolis which was written as G. Bolis and referred to simply as "Bolis".

Alfaraby - 11-12-2015 at 01:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hartun  
I think the title of "Usta" is in fact the normal title Usta and not a derivative from Gostanian/Costanian.
First of all because I've never heard of the name Costanian being morphed into Usta

Thank you Hartun for the clarifications; though I have to draw your attention to the fact that in Arabic, Usta stands for Qusta that stands for Qustandi, a familiar name in Arab Christian communities in grater Syria. Q is maintained in South Africa, but mostly pronounced (but never written) A' in most places in Syria and Egypt (while it turns into G in upper Egypt, Arab Peninsula, Jordan etc. and into Y in Sudan).
I thought Usta is actually Custa, while the suffix "yan/ian/jan" is expected to refer to a location, profession or father. Right ?
Therefore I thought Usta stands for the son of Usta=Custa, but you have enlightened us by translating the Armenian text. Now it's clear.

Please refer to Levon's oud and tell us your impressions.

Thanks again

Yours indeed
Alfaraby