Mike's Oud Forums

Ali Khalifeh oud

Rémon - 10-28-2015 at 05:30 AM

Hello!

I'm new on this forum, i just bought my first oud and found this great forum. :)

The oud has a label Ali Khalifeh & Sons. It needed some repair and maintenance but it is an awesome instrument now. Great, deep sound and brilliant trebles..

Seems to me that the bowl, bridge, fingerboard en head is made from Madagascar rosewood. The top is made of spruce, narrow and straight grained on the sides, but more open on the inside. The lacquer seems quiet nice. Beautiful detailed inlays as well. Overall, a pretty decent instrument..

I attached some pictures of the instrument and the label. I dont reed Arabic unfortunately, could someone perhaps translate the label? :) I'm quiet curious to know when the oud was made.

I would very appreciate a little feedback on the instrument.. Is it a basic, intermediate or perhaps professional instrument?

Thanks in advance..

raafata10 - 10-28-2015 at 07:34 AM

Dear Remon

This oud was made in January 4th 2006 according to the label. Ali Khalifa and sons. Best Regards

Rémon - 10-28-2015 at 08:08 AM

Dear Raafata,

Thank you so much for your respons.. That is really great to know..

Could you perhaps tell if the quality is reasonable? The newer Ali Khalifeh & sons Oud's are of lesser quality, but this particular model has gotten more attention to detail and materials when I compare it to the other models that I find on the internet.

Kind regards

Oud Freak - 10-28-2015 at 10:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by raafata10  
Dear Remon

This oud was made in January 4th 2006 according to the label. Ali Khalifa and sons. Best Regards


01/02/2006 February 1st, 2006

Rémon - 10-29-2015 at 10:08 AM

Thanks! :)

raafata10 - 10-30-2015 at 09:31 AM

Dear Remon

It is very difficult to judge the quality from the pictures. The best way to determine the quality and overall structural integrity of the oud is to have a professional luthier examine it. You are already ahead judging by how much you love the oud's sound. After all that is what it is all about. May you enjoy your new friend. Best Regards, Raafat

Rémon - 10-31-2015 at 12:31 PM

Dear Raafat,

I understand.. It´s difficult to judge an instrument´s quality through picture´s only.

Thank you for your kind words, i am starting to appriciate the oud more and more.. Takes some time to get used to it since i am a classical-flamenco guitar player, but it´s starting to get better .. :)

For what i see, it´s a great quality instrument.. Just the top wood is of little lesser quality in the middle (wider-little wavy grain), but beside of that it´s a nice instrument.. Well put together with beautiful details.. Good quality wood overall as well..
It´s also the first oud of Ali Khalifeh & Sons i see of this quality. The ones i spot on the internet often have less inlay, and lesser quality woods.. The bridge is also more "fancy" on this model. Perhaps that this a sort of "prime" model of the current producers of Ali Khalifeh & Sons oud's. :)

Thanks again, I am just fully enjoying this instrument. :) Has an amazing sound and is very responsive and percussive as well.. If somebody has more input about this instrument or maybe has spotted a similar model, I would love to hear about it!

I added a few more picture's taken in daylight. :)


[file]37295[/file] [file]37297[/file] [file]37299[/file] [file]37301[/file] [file]37303[/file]

Brian Prunka - 10-31-2015 at 12:37 PM

The grain is not really an indicator of quality. It's true that many makers use the tightest grain they can find, but this is more about aesthetics and perception than actual quality of sound.

This does look nice than a typical Khalifeh. Particularly the bowl seems to have a higher level of work. 2006 is not really old, I knew many Khalifeh's from this time, also before and after. Some are nice, many are not.
While they're generally not valuable, some of them can be pretty nice.

The only way to evaluate one is to play it in person, IMO.

Rémon - 10-31-2015 at 01:36 PM

In my experience, the grain of the wood does tell a little about the (tone) quality.. It also indicates in a degree for me if the builder wanted to build an exclusive instrument, or maybe an simple beginners instrument..
It's also essential what the builder does with the wood, how does he put everything together, what kind of bracing does he use.. thickness of wood etc.. But, when handled correctly.. I think that a good quality piece of wood can contribute in a better tone of the instrument..
But.. this is only my view on wood.. And I respect your opinion of course..

Good to see your opinion and experience with other Khalifeh's.. Yes, I also think that the bowl is rather special for a younger Khalifeh oud. It look pretty close to me to be either Brazilian but most probably Madagascar rosewood..
I think it has a great sound and playability but this is my first oud, so I can't compare it unfortunately.

Jody Stecher - 10-31-2015 at 02:47 PM

Preference for tight grain is a recent development. Some great ouds of early times have no such uniformity and orderliness in the wood. One sees ouds with soundboards of six pieces and the pieces do not match. And the oud is well made and sounds great.

Rémon - 10-31-2015 at 03:11 PM

That's interesting..
Thank you for the insight, the oud and it's history is still very new for me..

Rémon - 10-31-2015 at 03:28 PM

But now I think about it..
The old cello's and early flamenco guitars are also made of plainer woods..

jdowning - 10-31-2015 at 04:07 PM

Brian and Jody are correct in cautioning against the significance of grain pattern in sound board woods - ouds, lutes or guitars. The luthier trade happily provides sound board material, on demand (and profitably!) for ouds and guitars that, in part, serves the cosmetic aspirations of the inexpert consumer - two piece sound board, fine regular straight grain spacing, no wood discolouration etc.

The great oud (and lute) makers traditionally made the sound boards of their instruments from more than two pieces - but not because of shortage of acoustically prime material. The acoustic quality of sound board material can vary considerably within the same tree cross section. The old oud (and lute) makers knowingly selected the best strips of sound board material from a tree to perform best acoustically when combined - up to six pieces per sound board in some cases.

For more information on this topic do a forum search for 'multiple piece
soundboards'.

Rémon - 11-1-2015 at 02:47 AM

This topic is floating to a whole other subject..

I think that opinions about this matter are divided.. And that is ok.. People don't always have to agree I think. :)
We can see the classic much spoken subject about Torres his guitar which was made of paper mache:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHJrqJEhob8&feature=player_embed...
This guitar was partly made from paper mache, like the guitar of Torres..

Torres wanted to prove that a instrument can make a good sound, when one uses a good quality top.. He believed that the quality of the top can compensate the lower quality of the back and sides. I also think that the (top)wood is important.. But what makes a top "good"..
https://www.bromptons.co/auction/2nd-november-2015/lots/183-a-spanis...
Here is close-up picture of a Torres guitar which is currently for sale now. He used a reasonable fine, even grained top for this guitar.. I think that if he thought that the grain wouldn't be important, he perhaps wouldn't bother to find and use this specific piece of wood..
I agree that using multiple piece's for a top is not a bad thing..

My point is that I think that a even (tight/slightly wide(r) grained top contributes in a more potential instrument. But this is of course my own opinion..
Romanillos tell about this in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59Vsdgg00Gs

But again, I dont share this view to be stubborn, it's just a part of my personal view on how I perceive instrument's and it's sound. Perhaps I am wrong, and I am open to learn..


jdowning - 11-1-2015 at 05:41 AM

You are right that this topic is starting to drift onto a whole different subject but one that has already been discussed on this forum in recent years. This being the case I do not have the time or inclination to go over old ground again but a forum search using key words like 'multiple piece soundboards' or ' speed of sound in wood' or even 'soundhole acoustics' should bring up most of the relevant topics and posts. So I will just make a brief final comment here on this off topic subject.

The luthier world is full of conflicting opinions about this or that. I for one do not accept any of them without trying to satisfy myself about their validity or otherwise by basic experimentation. I regularly freely post my results - for what they are worth - on this forum in the hope that they will be of some interest or even value. Otherwise I don't care one way or the other and my objective is certainly not to try to persuade others from their long held beliefs.

I don't pay much attention to guitar lutherie these days but the famous Torres papier maché guitar has already been mentioned in past topics as are the Romanillos videos.
Note that in addition to those excellent informative videos, José Romanillos has also published a book 'Antonio De Torres: Guitar Maker - His Life and Work' The informed comment that he makes about the Torres sound boards can be found here:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=EOMU8U7qNcsC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA...

Note that Torres found great difficulty in finding identically perfectly book matched pieces of Piceas Abies (Fir species) so most if not all of his sound boards are made up from mismatched pieces some with offset centrelines (2 piece) and others made up from 3 or 4 pieces all carefully selected for essential acoustic properties - no spiral grain run out etc. The grain spacing alone has little influence on acoustic properties and Torres used wood with wide ranging grain spacing.