Mike's Oud Forums

Please support SUTSOO

spyblaster - 10-28-2015 at 10:06 AM

Hi folks

Here is a page I made weeks ago, hoping to start a campaign against the use of tortoise shell on ouds. We may not be able to stop cruel tortoise shell trade, but we can definitely stop being a part of it.

So please like SUTSOO page on facebook, stop buying ouds with tortoise shell on them and ask your favorite luthiers to stop using this material.

Facebook page address:
https://www.facebook.com/sutsoo

Cheers,
Amir Alipour

Jason - 10-28-2015 at 01:11 PM

Thanks Amir. There is no reason at all for tortoise shell to be used for anything nowadays. Spreading the word and educating people is the only we can end the practice for good.

Almelaifi - 10-28-2015 at 01:31 PM

That's great Amir.

Thank you very much :)

Jody Stecher - 10-28-2015 at 02:28 PM

Is the decorative or musical use of tortoiseshell necessary? No. Do shell picks sound better than those made of other materials? No. Is there any justification for making new products of new shell? No. Is there any reason to avoid using old shell for new purposes? I think the answer to that is also "no".

Harvesting/killing tortoises for their shells is one thing. Re-using the shells of tortoises that died in the 19th century is quite another. I know someone in the UK who made a hobby of vandalizing 19th century mirror backs and hair brushes made from tortoise shell. He made plectrums from them and sold them for various prices, ranging from £15 and 1 beer to £2 and 3 beers. With the money he bought good quality mandolins and loaned them to young players throughout the UK. I don't think he did a bit of harm.

I know of a mandolin that has an inset pickguard made from a tortoise shell pick guard of an antique Greek lauto that was severely damaged. Enough of the pick guard was viable to make a small pick guard for a mandolin. The tortoise died 100 years earlier. Isn't it better for the shell to live on for another 100 years than for it to be thrown on the scrap heap?

I know of another feller whose uncle in South America found two tortoise shells washed up on the beach. the shells hung on the wall of his beach shack for years. then his nephew got permission to have them made into picks. I've tried a few. they're good. When the shells were found there was no tortoise living inside. Each had been picked clean by sea creatures.

Would it have been better to leave the shell than to make useful objects from it? The argument against using any tortoise shell for any purpose goes that if tortoise shell is seen as attractive this will create demand, and demand will lead to the slaughter of tortoises. A few years ago these picks were for sale in a music store in a small American town in the rural south that has a good number of local guitar players. The picks were on display. The price was a fraction of Black Market tortoise shell plectrums. Nobody was buying them.

Again, I don't see the harm. Sea creatures ate the tortoises. the shell has already been fashioned into plectrums. Isn't it better to use them than to throw them away?

Lysander - 10-28-2015 at 02:55 PM

It's one thing to use already dead tortoises for rishas, it's another to sell those rishas on and create a demand so that more tortoises are killed purely for that purpose and related products.

spyblaster - 10-28-2015 at 03:05 PM

Even using old shell may help to keep the demand alive. Maybe its reasonable to ignore the dead tortoises for the sake of alive ones, don't u think?

Jody Stecher - 10-28-2015 at 04:04 PM

You'd both be right if there was evidence that it creates demand. But the limited evidence I have seen suggests that it does not.

spyblaster - 10-28-2015 at 04:07 PM

After all, the whole thing is about asking luthiers stop using tortoise shell. I dont think luthiers search the shore for dead tortoises.

Jody Stecher - 10-28-2015 at 05:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster  
After all, the whole thing is about asking luthiers stop using tortoise shell. I dont think luthiers search the shore for dead tortoises.


Actually, figuratively speaking, they do. Luthiers do not order all supplies from a catalogue. They find their materials in all sorts of places and all sorts of ways. I know a maker of flamenco guitars in Oregon who hauls out entire trees from the forest when they have fallen in a storm. I know another who loves old celluloid and who finds great rolls and sheets of the stuff on three continents and uses it decoratively. As for me, back in the early 1970s I used to visit the zoo to collect fallen eagle feathers to use for oud plectrums. Actual risha-s. The keeper of the eagles was all too happy to let me have the feathers. How did I endanger the population of wild eagles? Did I create a demand for eagle feather plectra? I did not. Absolutely not.

To be clear, I am not in favor of killing any more tortoises or eagles or elephants either. But I have seen such rigid silliness in applying rules and laws. I think the piano in British Columbia that was stripped of its ivory keys by an overenthusiastic Mountie is not "urban myth". I wish it was. It made the piano worse, and made nothing better. And what about the European symphony musicians who had their violin bows confiscated at JFK airport because of a tiny piece of 200 year old ivory at the tip of the bow? That does nothing to keep elephants safe and does everything to create lesser music from the innocent violinists.

What will make elephants and tortoises safe is the refusal of luthiers to *buy* new ivory and tortoise shell. Do not support the suppliers. Ending the demand is what ends the supply. Using the existing supply does not create a demand. Not in this case, as far as I can see. Refusing to use old materials from ancient long-dead animals does not make sense to me. I do not believe that its use creates a demand. How many new ouds have you seen with tortoise shell parts? Have you seen any at all? Yes, some makers in Turkey offer the option. But how many customers want it? Do you know anyone who plays an oud with any decorations from endangered species?

Jason - 10-28-2015 at 06:14 PM

I don't really understand the argument you're trying to make here Jody. We're talking about newly produced tortoise shell from recently harvested turtles. There can be no sane argument for the harvesting of turtles today, as you said.

Jody Stecher - 10-28-2015 at 06:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
I don't really understand the argument you're trying to make here Jody. We're talking about newly produced tortoise shell from recently harvested turtles. There can be no sane argument for the harvesting of turtles today, as you said.


Jason, you wrote " There is no reason at all for tortoise shell to be used for anything nowadays."

not "There is no reason at all for recently harvested tortoise shell to be used for anything nowadays."

I responded with what I thought were reasons. After that I responded to the responses to my response.

That's all. We agree on what you actually mean. I was responding to what was written.

spyblaster - 10-29-2015 at 12:15 AM

See, u find an old piece of shell and use it, I see it and like it. I can't find old shell so I buy a brand new piece. thats how old shells make demand. Especially if you are a famous oud player or teacher.
same is true about feather and ivory. as long as we don't stop using them, new or old pieces, animals will be slaughtered.

Jody Stecher - 10-29-2015 at 10:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster  
See, u find an old piece of shell and use it, I see it and like it. I can't find old shell so I buy a brand new piece. thats how old shells make demand. Especially if you are a famous oud player or teacher.
same is true about feather and ivory. as long as we don't stop using them, new or old pieces, animals will be slaughtered.


Your argument seems logical but I don't believe it is true. Certainly not for me. I am not a famous oud player and I have no oud students. Within a limited sphere I am a fairly well known player and teacher of other instruments and have had hundreds of students (maybe thousands if you count workshops and week-long schools). Not one student has ever wanted to replicate any decorative (or non-decorative) aspect of my instruments or plectrums. The same is true for so many other performers or teachers I know.

A flaw in your logic is the assumption that old shell cannot be found. It can be easily be found.

Another flaw in the logic of blaming luthiers for using endangered (and non-endangered) species of animals or woods is the assumption that a significant amount of the products of these species goes into the making of instruments. For instance do you know the percentage of harvested tropical hardwoods that goes into the making of musical instruments? It is one percent. 99% goes into flooring and furniture. So stopping the use of Brazilian rosewood in guitars or ouds has no meaningful effect on the safety of the rosewood trees that produce this timber.

Harvesting of tortoise shell (they get it from live animals!) is already illegal. Are there people who break the law? Of course. What percentage of the use of tortoiseshell worldwide is done by luthiers? I would think it is one hundredth of one percent. virtually nothing. So I say "leave the luthiers alone". They are not the problem.

I know you are sincere and I do not want to encourage the slaughter of animals but I think you are mistaken about cause and effect. The demand for shell in musical instruments is miniscule. Teensy. Japan is the biggest customer for tortoiseshell. There is also demand in other east Asian countries and in east Asian immigrant communities. The uses vary (including grinding it up and swallowing it) but virtually none of it goes into making ouds or other musical instruments. The Hawksbill turtle is in real danger but the threat does not come from luthiers or musicians.

As for eagles, there is virtually no demand at all. And there is no reason to kill an eagle for its feathers as it drops feathers naturally. Ivory from African elephants is a different story. But even then I think it is madness to punish violinists for using old bows that happen to have some ivory at the tip.

spyblaster - 10-29-2015 at 02:13 PM

As I said in the first place, I know we cannot stop this madness, but can stop being a part of it. and you are right, musical instruments decoration is a very tiny use of shell. But if this action saves even one tortoise, I say we will be the winners.

Jody Stecher - 10-29-2015 at 02:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster  
As I said in the first place, I know we cannot stop this madness, but can stop being a part of it. and you are right, musical instruments decoration is a very tiny use of shell. But if this action saves even one tortoise, I say we will be the winners.



OK, you did say that. Well done.