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Oud Display Wall Hangers?

JnRC - 11-16-2015 at 12:45 AM

I am looking for hangers to display Ouds on a wall. I've searched google, but came up short. Any one here have any suggestions where I could purchase Oud display hangers, or ideas on how to display Ouds on a wall. Thanks for any input. :wavey:

Brian Prunka - 11-16-2015 at 05:28 AM

Tie a string into a loop and weave it around the first two pegs, and hang from a hook or nail in the wall. Of course the string and hook/nail have to be strong and secure enough to hold the weight of the oud.

Dr. Oud - 11-16-2015 at 08:22 AM

I would not hang an oud from the neck on a wall. The risk of catastrophic damage is high if the nail, string or other failure allows the oud to fall. If the oud doesn't fall, the added weight of the body will accelerate the warping of the body resulting in a high string action. If you must put the oud on a wall, put it on a shelf with a tie down to keep it on the shelf.

I prefer to use a rack that cradles the oud so it can't fall, plus it puts no pressure on the neck.

[file]37416[/file]

Jody Stecher - 11-16-2015 at 09:10 AM

I don't think I'll ever have enough ouds to need one myself, but your oud rack is lovely. As for the picture above the rack, I've heard talk of an oud having a belly, beard, neck, head, and even an arm (an older word for the neck of a string instrument), but never before have I met an oud with legs.

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud

I would not hang an oud from the neck on a wall. The risk of catastrophic damage is high if the nail, string or other failure allows the oud to fall. If the oud doesn't fall, the added weight of the body will accelerate the warping of the body resulting in a high string action. If you must put the oud on a wall, put it on a shelf with a tie down to keep it on the shelf.

I prefer to use a rack that cradles the oud so it can't fall, plus it puts no pressure on the neck.

Jason - 11-16-2015 at 10:43 AM

Also make sure you have humidity in your home under control when you store ouds outside of a hard case. Humidity also needs to be considered when ouds are in cases but it is easier to control.

Brian Prunka - 11-16-2015 at 12:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud

While I respect your opinion, Richard, I do not agree. The shelf could fall down, your rack could tip over, vandals could break into your home and smash everything with sledgehammers . . . the likelihood of the oud falling from a hook is not significantly greater than any of the above scenarios provided one is attentive and careful in the first place.

The idea that the body will warp is interesting, but I have never seen any evidence that this is the case. I learned this trick from Najib Shaheen, who has been been keeping dozens of ouds hanging on the wall for 40 years or so—so far none have fallen or warped as a result.

If one wants to be totally safe, keep the oud inside its case inside a locked vault that is temperature and humidity controlled, and never play it!

Oud racks or even a stand for a single oud are not really available, so it is a strange to suggest something that is basically not an option. Hanging from a wall is also far safer than a rack or stand for anyone who has pets or children.

A few years ago there was a fire in my building, and the apartment was flooded with water and firemen stomping around breaking things. Yet all my ouds and guitars hanging on the walls were perfectly fine, something that I doubt would have been the case were they on stands.

jdowning - 11-16-2015 at 04:28 PM

I am with Brian here (a past topic as I recall?)

Attached is the image of a woodcut from the early 16th C lute tablature book 'Intabolatura de Leuto' by G.A. Casteliono published in Milan, Italy in 1536.

Note that the lutes of virtuoso lutenist Francesco da Milano are all hanging from sturdy pegs on a wall open to variable environmental conditions of temperature and humidity - not in the lute case propped against the door. I would never store my instruments in a case - they all need to 'breath' for best acoustical conditioning over time. What simply a better way than to hang them from wall pegs?
Good enough for lutes = good enough for ouds?

[file]37418[/file]

Jody Stecher - 11-16-2015 at 06:53 PM

I find that keeping ouds in cases is very good. I have not so many ouds that I don't get them out of the case and play each one often. But I always leave one out and what I've found is that in the case the tuning is remarkably stable. I can put a tuned oud in its case and take it out a week later and it is still tuned. Here in northern California the humidity and temperature is fairly stable but the oud left out even one night needs a bit of tuning in the morning.

Now about lutes and cases: I remember the first lute I saw. I was about 9 years old and my father took me to the Metropolitan Museum in New York. They had some lovely lutes on display and they captured my attention for a long time and captured my imagination for years afterwards. My father was interested in printed information that accompanied the exhibit. He asked me to read it aloud and say what I thought. There was a quote from a lutenist from the distant past. He said that a lute player spends a third of his life practicing the lute, a third actually playing it, and a third tuning it. Naturally I thought this was funny. My dad asked me to read on. Next came a prescription for reducing the amount of time spent tuning. One was to make a bed of sorts for the lute. It was to be lined with soft protective material with the instrument coming into contact only with the softest velvet or something like that, and the very top of the Lute Bed was a to be covered with a blanket. If the lute were kept in this way when not in use, its life would be prolonged and it would keep its tuning better. Next there was a warning not to let any people lie down on the bed, or the lute would be broken. This also made me laugh. "Now" said Dad, "what does that remind you of?"
I don't remember my answer but I sure remember *his* answer to his own question " a guitar case!"

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

I am with Brian here (a past topic as I recall?)

Attached is the image of a woodcut from the early 16th C lute tablature book 'Intabolatura de Leuto' by G.A. Casteliono published in Milan, Italy in 1536.

Note that the lutes of virtuoso lutenist Francesco da Milano are all hanging from sturdy pegs on a wall open to variable environmental conditions of temperature and humidity - not in the lute case propped against the door. I would never store my instruments in a case - they all need to 'breath' for best acoustical conditioning over time. What simply a better way than to hang them from wall pegs?
Good enough for lutes = good enough for ouds?

Eric Stern Music - 11-17-2015 at 09:04 AM

Brian, with all due respect I think the logic of your position is off: It's like saying that biking on the freeway is the same as driving, because after all, you could get struck by lightning, have a Steinway fall on you, or a bird could crash into you head-on--on a bike OR on a car. But you have to look at the baseline factors of safety and one is obviously more safe than the other because there are conditions that are inherently safer about one vs. the other. So then the question is is a rack safer than hanging, assuming that vandals (and maybe even Visigoths) could break into your home and smash things, etc. Seems like the rack is more stable, and if you asked me if I'd feel safer hanging on a wall, suspended by a rope on a nail OR sitting on well-made rack, I feel that there are far too FEW variables for the rope option. One slip of the nail or tear in the rope and it's all downhill (or down wall). A rack seems to have more safeguards for stability. Given all of that I AM curious about the warping and have to say that for about a year I was hanging my oud on the wall, until a ney player friend saw it and said that he thought that that would put too much tension on the neck. So I stopped doing that for that reason. I wonder if what he said is true.

Dr. Oud - 11-17-2015 at 10:02 AM

I didn't have enough wall space to hang 10 ouds, the rack can hold 10 ouds in 5 feet of wall space. The wall hanging in the woodcut looks like a coat rack, presumably attached to the wall, not just nails. If you use a nail, make it a big one and be sure it is driven into in a stud not just into the drywall or whatever wall covering material you have. If the string is tied at the first peg, it may not have much effect on the neck/body warp. If the string is tied at the last peg, it can lead to a loose pegbox joint. as hanging adds the weight of the oud to the string tension. Another benefit to the rack is that the oud is easily picked up to play and the ouds left in the rack benefit from sympathetic resonance when music is played. Ouds kept in their case are safe, but don't hear any music and so don't benefit from the sympathetic vibrations. Personally I have had ouds fall from a wall hanging and off a shelf. The rack provides a cradle, not dependent on a nail, string or wall material. The absolute safest is a glass cabinet, like museums use.

Brian Prunka - 11-17-2015 at 01:21 PM

Fair enough, Richard. I respect that your experience is different. You are also in a position where you can construct a rack to suit your needs, something you must realize is an extremely unusual case.

Eric Stern Music - 11-17-2015 at 01:39 PM

"something you must realize is an extremely unusual case. "

Having an oud is all about having an unusual case isn't it? Sorry, you set yourself up for that one and I couldn't resist!

Brian Prunka - 11-17-2015 at 01:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Eric Stern Music

Brian, with all due respect I think the logic of your position is off: It's like saying that biking on the freeway is the same as driving, because after all, you could get struck by lightning, have a Steinway fall on you, or a bird could crash into you head-on--on a bike OR on a car. But you have to look at the baseline factors of safety and one is obviously more safe than the other because there are conditions that are inherently safer about one vs. the other. So then the question is is a rack safer than hanging, assuming that vandals (and maybe even Visigoths) could break into your home and smash things, etc. Seems like the rack is more stable, and if you asked me if I'd feel safer hanging on a wall, suspended by a rope on a nail OR sitting on well-made rack, I feel that there are far too FEW variables for the rope option. One slip of the nail or tear in the rope and it's all downhill (or down wall). A rack seems to have more safeguards for stability. Given all of that I AM curious about the warping and have to say that for about a year I was hanging my oud on the wall, until a ney player friend saw it and said that he thought that that would put too much tension on the neck. So I stopped doing that for that reason. I wonder if what he said is true.

Perhaps my logic was not clear.
My point is that if one is careful, the risk of an oud falling off the wall is near zero. It's certainly less risky than a typical guitar stand, which I've seen many people use. Once risk falls below a certain level, it is silly to argue that further risk reduction should be the primary consideration. Since an oud can be damaged in many ways, risk calculation is not straightforward in this case anyway.

Your analogy is not apt, since bicycling on the freeway (aside from being illegal) is extremely dangerous. It is not anywhere close to the same category of risk as a car. If you want a more true comparison, perhaps it would be the difference between riding a tricycle and a bicycle. The bicycle is not nearly as stable as the tricycle and therefore exposes the rider to more risk. Yet, the evidence is that most people have concluded that the difference in risk is negligible for an experienced person (I use this example because I recently saw an old advertisement from the 1800s that encouraged people to buy tricycles and quadracycles as 'safer' alternatives to bicycles! Obviously this did not succeed in any substantial way).

As a comparison, planes with one engine are at fairly high risk of catastrophic failure. Planes with two engines have very low risk of such failure. With three engines, the risk falls to near zero. At that point, the benefit of adding more engines to further reduce risk is negligible. All else being equal, a 12-engine plane is "safer" than a 3-engine plane, but one would have to fly every day for several lifetimes for the change to become relevant.

Another analogy is that riding a large truck with a reinforced frame is safer than riding in a sedan. In this case, the risk differential is actually not negligible but even so many have concluded that the difference in risk is still small enough that it doesn't have to be the determining factor in their choice.

You already agree that at some point risk reduction is no longer the primary factor in your decision. What if I responded to the original question as follows: "I wouldn't recommend keeping the oud in anything but a custom-made museum-quality enclosure with humidity and temperature controls".
You would rightly respond that that was unnecessary, the risks are not so great that such an inconvenient and expensive approach would be required.
I am simply drawing the line in a very slightly different place.

Anyway, the OP has now been exposed to a variety of opinions and can make up his own mind.

Eric Stern Music - 11-17-2015 at 02:09 PM

Well I was arguing by extreme-example analogy. In the end I feel the risk IS high for falling off the wall vs. a unit, but perhaps that's because here in Earthquake-prone Oregon we are always contemplating the worst. In any case, you're right, the original poster probably has enough info, and anything else from this point on is just for the enjoyment of a discussion about any aspect of ouds in the midst of my day. I have to ride my tricycle to the store now...

Brian Prunka - 11-17-2015 at 08:04 PM

I almost posted that considerations would be different in areas with earthquakes. It seems to me that the risk during an earthquake is pretty high in a rack, shelf or stand also though.

We had an earthquake on the East Coast a few years ago. I guess it was kind of bad further south but in my apartment I just thought an unusually large truck drove by or something.

jdowning - 11-18-2015 at 04:53 PM

The old thread on this topic that I had in mind is here - for information

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6375#pid385...

Jody's recollection of the 'lute in a bed' anecdote - read as a nine year old on a visit to the Metropolitan Museum, New York - is impressive. Two points are raised one is that a lutenist in times past spent a lot of time in tuning the instrument (in this case 1/3 of of the total time - practising, playing and tuning) and that the best place to keep a lute is in a warm bed (but not the most secure of locations!).
The former observation about tuning difficulties was one of the lute jokes of the late 17th to mid 18th C when the popularity of the lute was fast in decline - one of the exaggerated and false prejudices levelled against the instrument that writers such as Ernst Gottlieb Baron in his 'Study of the Lute' published in 1727 sought to dispel. He quotes one anti lute critic of his time as stating that 'If a lutenist lives to be eighty years old, surely he has spent sixty years tuning'. Another contemporary joke is that ' a lutenist will spend half his time in tuning and the other half in playing out of tune'! It should be remembered that a lute of this period would have between 11 and 13 courses of gut - a string material that did no doubt give some level of tuning difficulty with changing humidity levels but - according to Baron - not in the hands of an accomplished player who would make any tuning adjustments imperceptibly during the course of a performance. Modern plastic strings are ,of course, much less humidity sensitive than the old gut (or silk) strings.

The 'lute in a bed' recommendation is made by Londoner Thomas Mace in his Musick's Monument' published in 1676. Mace was an eccentric but his writings about the lute give some valuable historical insights.(do a Google search for a free download of Mace's book).
The city of London, England is renowned for its often foggy('pea soupers'), damp environment. In Mace's day the penetrating dampness into the uninsulated, open fireplace heated buildings must have been a challenge for an English lute player during the colder months of the year (unlike lute players in sunny Italy and oud players in the Middle Eastern regions). Clearly Mace and his fellow Londoners were subject to poor unhealthy living conditions - his lutes would last barely a year without starting to fall apart requiring corrective maintenance. His recommended best practice to minimise these problems (Chapter V) is 'And when you may know how to shelter your lute in the worst of ill weathers (which is moist) you shall do well, ever when you lay it by in the daytime, to put it into a bed that is constantly used - between the rug and blanket - but never between the sheets because they may be moist with sweat etc.'
I guess that Mace and family must have spent a lot of the day in bed?!

He follows with a warning exception to the security of a warm bed 'That no person be so inconsiderate as to tumble down upon the bed whilst the lute is there - for I have known several good lutes spoiled with such a trick'

Mace then gives an alternative to the bed as 'a good warm case lined with bays within and covered with leather without ....' but then goes on to say 'Yet all these are not sufficient security for it, if it should stand in a damp room, for then both lute and case will be all mouldy and come in pieces' (!)

Jody Stecher - 11-18-2015 at 04:57 PM

jdowning: wonderful stuff! great to read this. and yes this must have been the very stuff printed up in the museum display. That was a very long time ago. thank you!

bulerias1981 - 11-19-2015 at 08:08 AM

I actually prefer NOT to place instruments in the case and leave them enclosed all the time. I want the instrument to "season" in a good way. I want the soundboard to oxidize, and the cell structure to change for the better. Leaving the oud in the case would diminish the time for good seasoning. Not to mention it's a hassle to take it out of the case, that's too much work, and a discouragement to play! Of course the shop is properly humidified for North East winters.

Here is how I recently hung my ouds. I use 2x 1/2" dowels drilled and glued into a 2x4 which is screwed into the wall's studs (very secure), the dowel that is behind the neck, gets a small 1/4" or slightly smaller dowel drilled and inserted into it, this prevents the oud sliding off in the case of a sudden change of gravity on earth ( I make sure I'm never late paying the gravity bill!) or even an earthquake! If you want to improve on this, and perhaps I will, you can add felt to the areas which the oud contacts the dowels, not a bad idea.

jdowning - 11-19-2015 at 04:53 PM

I agree with you John about leaving an instrument to openly 'season' (by cyclic variations of ambient temperature and humidity over time). In fact Mace was also of this opinion in explaining why old instruments sounded better than new.

Jack_Campin - 11-20-2015 at 08:39 AM

The rack in that picture of Francesco da Milano looks very much like the kind you can buy from IKEA to hang your saucepans from.

majnuunNavid - 5-26-2016 at 07:01 PM

Brian, I'm trying to visualize your description above... does Najib hang his Ouds with the face against the wall, or with the face out to the world? Or put another way, does he hang it from the pegs/neck closest to the nut or the pegs closest to the end of the headstock?

Brian Prunka - 5-26-2016 at 07:08 PM

Face to the wall, hung from the pegs closest to the neck.

jdowning - 5-28-2016 at 05:30 AM

Here again for information is the engraving of lutes hanging from pegs - previously posted on this thread but now deleted accidentally. The engraving is from 'Intabolatura de Leuto de diversi autori' by G.A. Casteliono published in Milan 1536. It contains works in tablature by some of the famous Italian lute virtuosi of the time (Francesco da Milano, Pietro Paul Borrono etc.). Presumably the lute player depicted is meant to be one of these greats.

Note that the lutes hang with faces to the wall. Note also that each lute is supported by its pegs directly resting on an appropriately spaced double pin arrangement on the wall rack - not hanging from string.

antekboodzik - 5-28-2016 at 01:57 PM

Was it safe for pegs?

I wonder what it is the closest to the player figure. A lute strap? Or maybe a strap to actually hold the instrument from pin by its necks/pegheads, not the pegs?

jdowning - 5-29-2016 at 04:41 AM

Hmmm! Looking at the engraving again, both lutes are not hanging by their pegs from pins on the rack and do not appear to be supported by anything - super magnets perhaps? As for the other thing hanging behind the lute player - it looks more like a string of sausages! Lunch perhaps!
However, as the engraving is less than photographic in its detail the original intent of the engraver is open to some speculation. My guess is that the lutes were supported by the double pins hanging by the pegs. No doubt the pins were set sloping back at a slight angle on the wall rack so the lutes did not need to be tied in place for extra security.

majnuunNavid - 5-29-2016 at 08:56 PM

I am using twine to hang my Ouds from nails in the wall. As for the pegs, I think the twine adds good support around the pegs and when I hang them I make sure the twine is flush with the pegbox so that the pressure of the twine is supported by the strongest part of the peg.

antekboodzik - 6-6-2016 at 02:31 PM

I doubt if hanging oud\lute like instruments for pegs is a good option. It would damage some pegs for sure.
I am planning to hang my two lutes (and a bowlback mandolin) on the wall, just to have it handy, and also for nice display. I was trying to figure how to reproduce the Casteliono engraving way of hanging lutes, and I am pretty convinced, it must involve the use of some strap/twine, or wooden support, to actually hold the lute for its pegbox from the back between the posts, and not for pegs. But as I want to keep it pretty high up the wall (above a 3/4 tall dresser), having extra parts to hold the instrumet won't be practical. The one way of constructing a wall hanger I found is this litle "hook", made from a piece of softwood, and two pieces of beech wood dowels. Still not fully tested device - I am going to check, if it is not prone to deflection, and how much load it can withstand. If it apear to be strong enough, I plan to make final ones with slightly thicker, not "riffled" main dowels.
Any suggestions or other ideas, please?