Mike's Oud Forums

Which string to which peg?

MelbOudist - 12-20-2015 at 09:24 AM

So I recently got an Egyptian oud and as per usual I plan to replace the original strings, but I'm uncertain as to which strings should go which peg.
Should the lowest string go to the peg furthest to the nut (like in the attached picture) or should it go to the closest peg? The current strings are arranged in a random mess and I just want to make sure I'm not over-stressing my oud since this one is not as sturdy as most.

I'm using regular tension strings by Crystal



[file]37718[/file]

Brian Prunka - 12-20-2015 at 10:04 AM

Most people seem to switch the position of 10 and 11 in the picture above.

An alternative, used by many Arabic oud players, has 56 where 34 are, 78 where 56 are, and 34 there 78 are.

Like:

10 4 3 2 1
11 9 8 7 6 5

Matthias - 12-20-2015 at 11:02 AM

Hello,

I do it more and more in the way how in the european lutes the strings are arranged.

Matthias

Brian Prunka - 12-20-2015 at 01:22 PM

I wouldn't want to use Matthias's arrangement because some string sets will not be long enough to reach all the pegs on all ouds.

mich - 12-20-2015 at 01:25 PM

When I took my oud into a local shop (Amherst's "Fretted Instrument Workshop") the luthier there was very entertained - or confused? - by what he saw as the random nature of the string-to-peg pattern. I used the pattern illustrated above in MelbOudist's post and the luthier asked me if there was a good reason for it. I had to admit that, as a total newbie, I didn't know.

Seeing Matthias' very logical arrangement above makes me wonder: are there good arguments? or only traditions (which can be good arguments in themselves)?

Jody Stecher - 12-20-2015 at 01:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mich  
When I took my oud into a local shop (Amherst's "Fretted Instrument Workshop") the luthier there was very entertained - or confused? - by what he saw as the random nature of the string-to-peg pattern. I used the pattern illustrated above in MelbOudist's post and the luthier asked me if there was a good reason for it. I had to admit that, as a total newbie, I didn't know.

Seeing Matthias' very logical arrangement above makes me wonder: are there good arguments? or only traditions (which can be good arguments in themselves)?



The first part of my reply is going to sound vapid and flimsy but I think that the pattern of One Pair/This Side, Next Pair/ That Side is an integral part of what I'll call "the oud experience". I'm so used to it that doing it in a guitar or lute way would feel odd.

The second part is more solid. Sometimes the holes in the tuning pegs are placed in expectation of the traditional stringing pattern(s) being used. Another way might possibly lead to some undesirable entanglements. Of course another hole could be drilled.

But you know, the old pattern makes a lot of sense to me. First one tunes nawa/neva, the second course. Since that is the first pair to be tuned, the two pegs for those strings are placed nearest to the player's hands. Top side just past the nut. The next course to be tuned is usually either the first or third. And these are, respectively, right across, and right next to the pegs for the second course. Just as the first course is right across the peghead from the second, the pegs for the fourth course are directly across from the third. Where to look for the fifth course pegs? Right next door, that's where. At this point the peghead is quite narrow and sometimes the fifth course has one peg on either side. Somehow it makes sense for the single bass course, the sixth course, to be at the most narrow part. I mean "poetic sense", not structural sense.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Brian Prunka - 12-20-2015 at 03:19 PM

Jody's explanation makes sense to me also.

To elaborate on string entanglements:

the windings of the string around the peg ought to go toward the peg, and stay close together. For the first couple of pegs, and for the extreme courses (i.e., 1, 2, 10 and 11), the location of the hole can have a big effect on whether stringing to that peg 'works' for a particular course.

Another thing to consider is the break angle of the string. It is actually logical to have the lowest string close to the nut, where the break angle is greatest, as the additional downward force created will help avoid the floppy feeling often encountered on that string.
This actually could be a significant factor on a few courses, mainly the 2nd, 3rd and 6th courses, which are generally the most problematic on the oud from the standpoint of finding the ideal combination of strings/tone/feel.

The 2nd course generally has less tension because thick nylon strings tend to sound too dull, so a lighter string is used than one would theoretically predict. A high break angle makes the tension feel higher than it is, compensating for this somewhat.

The 3rd course suffers from the same problem when using a nylon string, or the opposite problem when using a metal-wound string (it is difficult to make a strong metal string light enough to match the rest of the string and also have it sound good and be durable). So depending on your preference there, you should have a higher or lower angle.

The 6th course is basically very low for the length of most ouds and consequently tends to feel floppy and have undesirable nonharmonic overtones. Increasing the break angle should counteract this somewhat.

If one considers break angle only, it would make the most sense to use the following arrangement if the third is wound:

8 7 2 1 4 3
10 9 6 5 11

and if the third is plain:
8 7 2 1 4 3
10 9 11 6 5

Of course, this is just one way of thinking about it and is not necessarily ideal for other reasons.
Also, pegboxes are differently shaped, so it might not be the same for all pegboxes.

Note that I've never tried this! It really hadn't occurred to me before. I was just thinking about logical alternative arrangements and thought it would be interesting to consider the effect of the string break angle.

Microber - 12-21-2015 at 01:52 AM

When I bought my oud from Fadi Matta, I have been surprised to see this stringing.
Since then I have kept these positions with no special problem of entanglement or other.
But it is very interesting to read all that discussion.

Robert
[file]37726[/file]

Matthias - 12-23-2015 at 01:06 AM

Hello all,

I tried to answer to Brians post concerning the too short strings, but every time when I send it the field gets empty and nothing is posted. The system wants me to add the subject. Then the post works by empty as you can see several times.

Hello Brian,

this is now my 3rd try to answer-reply your post. 2 times the result was empty and only possible inserting the subject new.

I think that 100 cm strings are long enough for an aoud with a 60 cm scale, even for a floating bridge. I never had any problems with too short strings.

i found the following length:

Savarez lute strings -- 100 cm

Savarez Leonida strings -- ca. 230 cm for both

Pyramid lute strings -- 115 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 105 cm ( wound )

Pyramid aoud strings -- 115 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 100 cm ( wound )

Thomastik -- 100 cm

Kurschner -- 115 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 110 cm ( wound )

AQUILA -- 100 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 105 cm ( wound )

Which Brand did you find out to be too short

Best regards


Matthias

Microber - 12-24-2015 at 09:10 AM

Hey Matthias, what's happening ? ;);)

Brian Prunka - 12-24-2015 at 10:40 AM

He's probably having trouble posting. The board has been having problems lately.

Dr. Oud - 12-24-2015 at 12:10 PM

MY recommended pattern:

(12) 11 4 3 2 1
10 9 8 7 6 5

My reason is that this arrangement reduces the crossover or touching of wound strings, which can affect tuning: if the string you are tuning crosses or touches another string, it can change the pitch of the other string being touched.

I don't consider break angle, convenience or "balanced forces" to be as important as the clean and unobstructed arrangement of strings in the pegbox. Where the hole in the peg is is of no consequence as long as it is not up against the wall at the small end of the peg, which would interfere with the peg seating properly to hold the tension. The break angle can be relieved by using a top nut as wide as possible (at least 4mm) with a full radius into the peg box, round groove guides larger than the strings, and a break in the edge to the fingerboard.

Wound strings should be used full length with all of the string wound on the peg with at least one overlap, and the final position directly in line with the string's guide in the top nut. The nylon strings need to have a half hitch knot through the peg hole to prevent slipping, wound strings only need to be inserted in the hole and overlapped at least once. Loose ends in the peg box can get caught on other pegs and interfere with tuning smoothly.

Finally wind the strings neatly to avoid any overlap at the output. The overlap can cause a lump in the peg diameter, making tuning more difficult.

The 12th peg can be used for a tuning using a high F at the first position, with the 1srt and 2nd strings shifted down, never for double bass strings.

6 5 4 3 2 1
12 11 10 9 8 7







Mike - 12-29-2015 at 05:18 PM

Hi guys,

I tried posting Matthias' response. I did a number of things and have no clue why I keep getting a blank post.

Matthias...try just posting your reply to a new thread. Don't bother with that suggestion Matthias. I'll then try and merge it to this thread. That's all I can think of.

Sorry,
Mike

Matthias Post above

Mike - 12-29-2015 at 05:47 PM

Small Update: Looks like I was able to edit his post above by retyping it word for word as he sent it to me via email. It didn't work when I cut and pasted it in as a reply.

Brian Prunka - 12-29-2015 at 07:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Matthias  
Hello all,

I tried to answer to Brians post concerning the too short strings, but every time when I send it the field gets empty and nothing is posted. The system wants me to add the subject. Then the post works by empty as you can see several times.

Hello Brian,

this is now my 3rd try to answer-reply your post. 2 times the result was empty and only possible inserting the subject new.

I think that 100 cm strings are long enough for an aoud with a 60 cm scale, even for a floating bridge. I never had any problems with too short strings.

i found the following length:

Savarez lute strings -- 100 cm

Savarez Leonida strings -- ca. 230 cm for both

Pyramid lute strings -- 115 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 105 cm ( wound )

Pyramid aoud strings -- 115 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 100 cm ( wound )

Thomastik -- 100 cm

Kurschner -- 115 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 110 cm ( wound )

AQUILA -- 100 cm ( plain Nylon ) and 105 cm ( wound )

Which Brand did you find out to be too short

Best regards


Matthias




It's true that most strings are long enough to accommodate any pattern, particularly the 'lute strings' on offer from any company I am aware of.

It's not a very common problem, but it does come up from time to time. I don't recall the specifics of every instance.
I do recall an instance where the Pyramid Orange set did not fit my floating bridge Sukar; I did not repeat the experiment since. I believe the length was 61 or 62cm. I have had others remark that the strings were of insufficient length for their floating bridge oud. Perhaps Pyramid has changed the length of their strings? I have not checked the length in some time. Fortunately most floating bridge ouds are rather short and the problem is avoided.

journeyman - 1-1-2016 at 06:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
MY recommended pattern:

(12) 11 4 3 2 1
10 9 8 7 6 5

My reason is that this arrangement reduces the crossover or touching of wound strings, which can affect tuning: if the string you are tuning crosses or touches another string, it can change the pitch of the other string being touched.

I don't consider break angle, convenience or "balanced forces" to be as important as the clean and unobstructed arrangement of strings in the pegbox. Where the hole in the peg is is of no consequence as long as it is not up against the wall at the small end of the peg, which would interfere with the peg seating properly to hold the tension. The break angle can be relieved by using a top nut as wide as possible (at least 4mm) with a full radius into the peg box, round groove guides larger than the strings, and a break in the edge to the fingerboard.

Wound strings should be used full length with all of the string wound on the peg with at least one overlap, and the final position directly in line with the string's guide in the top nut. The nylon strings need to have a half hitch knot through the peg hole to prevent slipping, wound strings only need to be inserted in the hole and overlapped at least once. Loose ends in the peg box can get caught on other pegs and interfere with tuning smoothly.

Finally wind the strings neatly to avoid any overlap at the output. The overlap can cause a lump in the peg diameter, making tuning more difficult.

The 12th peg can be used for a tuning using a high F at the first position, with the 1srt and 2nd strings shifted down, never for double bass strings.

6 5 4 3 2 1
12 11 10 9 8 7


Food for thought Richard; makes sense to me.