Mike's Oud Forums

Left hand technique issues

Al Hamar - 1-8-2016 at 01:05 AM

Marhaba,

I already searched the forums but I was unable to find anything related to what I wanted to ask. I do have experience playing other stringed instruments but have not had this same issue as I do with the Oud.

I'll use maqam AJAM as an example. When I ascend on AJAM ( C, D (open), E, F, G (open), A, B and C (open)) my fingers while switching strings often bounce off a note causing it to ring. Imagine if you push your finger down on a note and then release it. Instead of the note cutting off before hitting the next note on the next string, the last note is subtly ringing. If you want to compare this to the guitar it's almost like tapping / hammering off but without intending to.This is only an issue when playing one note on a string to the next note on another string.

Does anyone have any suggestions for making this transition more clean? Should the finger get in the habit of resting on the string without pressing before proceeding to the next note and string?

The other thing I noticed on the oud is how close together the strings are. I am sure it varies from model to model but in general the spacing is quite narrow especially towards the head with the tuning pegs. It is quite easy for fingers to slightly touch other strings not allowing them to resonate properly (hence why chords are quite difficult on oud).

Once again any suggestions? I've tried arching my fingers more and playing on the most upward tips of my fingers which seems awkward as I have never done this on previous stringed instruments. Even so that doesn't always solve the problem.

Is this a common problem or limitation of all ouds in general? FYI - my oud is of good quality and I am not playing on a junky instrument.

Thanks in advance.

franck leriche - 1-8-2016 at 04:10 AM

Quite difficult to help without seeing.
If you can make a small video, it would be much more easier to see where's the problem.
From my personal experience, i found that i had to arch a little more the fingers on non fretted instruments that on fretted ones. It's not a lot but it makes a difference, also i have to cut my nails shorter. Maybe it's just me, it may depend on each person's hand.
As a teacher, i know that beginners and average players focus to much on their problems with the instrument more that on the music. If you focus more on the music your fingers will find their positions.
But it's very easy to say.
I've seen that those beginners who seems to be very gifted are fully involved into the music, and even if their technique is very low, it makes the music sound great. But for those gifted musicians, it's a hard work to focus on the instrument because they so much into the music.
You can also make a video of yourself playing to look from outside. Try to record from different angles to see if there's something wrong.

Jody Stecher - 1-8-2016 at 07:58 AM

When moving from C to the open D string release the pressure of the finger on the fingerboard without lifting it from the string. This will deaden the string (stop it from vibrating). Then you can lift the finger as the D is vibrating or even later on as you won't need that finger right away. Finger E and then F without lifting the E finger. When moving to the G string do the same as when leaving the C note —release the pressure without lifting the finger until you need it for another note on another string. Finger A and then B without lifting the A finger. Before playing high C do the same with B as you did leaving low C and F —do not lift the finger until the string has stopped vibrating. And even then you may not want to lift it at all. For instance if you then want to play a descending scale your finger is already in position to play B after the high C. Why remove it only to return it moments later?

As for the strings being close together, I haven't seen your oud so I don't really understand the problem. I don't find the strings (the courses) close together on oud. I don't often play chords on oud but I don't find a problem except making sure I am in tune.

I have a guess as to the origin of both problems you are having: can it be that you are pressing too hard on the fingerboard? Try using just enough pressure to get a clean clear sound and not a bit more pressure than that. this may possibly solve both problems.

Al Hamar - 1-10-2016 at 02:11 PM

Thank you for the replies.

Franck:

Although a bit uncomfortable at first, arching the fingers a bit more on the Oud seems to slightly help. I generally have a good balance between feeling the music and proper technique when playing an instrument. Everything on the Oud feels great except for the problem I already explained. I have very short nails. I am probably becoming a bit too obsessive about it. As you said, when I get more comfortable on the Oud I might be able to work around the problem naturally. On the other hand, some believe that if you practice mistakes or bad form it only makes it more difficult to unlearn those mistakes. Guess it depends on the person.

Jody:

Yes I understand what you mean about muting the string as I transition from C to D etc... I've been dabbling with that technique and seems to be the best way to go about the problem. I have lost some speed as a result but with practice I'll build that up again. I think part of the problem as I release off the string is that it sticks to my finger slightly. However, my fingers are quite smooth at the moment. Pressing more lightly on the fingerboard helps or at least reduces the resonance.

I'll try to post a video one of these days when I have time. Thanks.

Brian Prunka - 1-10-2016 at 02:17 PM

Jody's advice is good. You should rarely be lifting the fingers completely off the string unless you want to play the open string or you need that finger for another note. If the finger comes directly off a non-vibrating string then the open string will not sound (i.e., a previously stopped string will not sound when you take the finger off).

Al Hamar - 1-11-2016 at 02:36 AM

I agree about keeping fingers in place as much as possible.

However, holding down the D note on the G string ( I am tuned C F A d g c ) and keeping it in place with my ring finger while transitioning to open C is still a problem. Why? My ring finger is slightly touching one of the strings tuned to C causing a dead note. One high C rings the other is dead . Arching the finger helps but even with extreme adjustments the same issue is happening and why I usually lift off the D note before going to C.

It seems no matter how I position my finger (arching etc..) I often get a similar problem. It is less of an issue on the lower strings.

SamirCanada - 1-11-2016 at 09:10 AM

why are you playing D on the G-string? D is the open 3rd string or the second finger on the C string... D on the G-string is way down into the neck area... don't focus on playing there as a beginner.

how high is your string action? sometimes that leads to pressing to hard to compensate.

why don't you make a little video?

Al Hamar - 1-11-2016 at 09:13 AM

Samir - My mistake. I am not playing that far across the neck. I meant the B note on the G string going to the open high C.

Action is comfortable. Not too low, not too high. Right in the pocket as I say.

Brian Prunka - 1-11-2016 at 10:30 AM

I think you're going to have to make a video. I have an oud with the courses very close together and don't have this problem at all.

Your fingers should be arched, with the fingertips essentially perpendicular to the strings at the point of contact. This is very similar to guitar, violin, cello in that respect. If you have unusually fat fingers I guess this could be a problem and maybe you would need an oud with wider spacing. The oud is less forgiving of poor technique than the guitar, so things that you can get away with and sound okay on guitar typically will cause problems on the oud.

One thing that I've noticed in teaching is that students will have problems like this if they don't have the proper callouses built up on their fingers. People think of the callous as making the finger tougher so it doesn't hurt to play, but really the benefit of the callous is it makes the tip of the finger physically harder, which means that you don't have to press as hard and you have a smaller point of contact with the string (resulting in better tone and more precise intonation on fretless instruments). If you've been playing with less arched fingers, you may have callouses but they will be in the wrong place to be useful. Over time, practicing with correctly arched fingers will help create the proper callouses.

SamirCanada - 1-11-2016 at 11:17 AM

so you play the B note with the ring finger, what finger plays the A?
if its the middle finger you have the issue right there. It should be played with your index, this will allow you to play the B with your ring finger without stretching much.

To play these notes properly, usually its best to switch to what I call "second position" I don't think there is an officially accepted list of hand position on the oud like on the violin. I don't have great hand flexibility and I don't use my pinky much so I always switch position for Ajam on C as I get to the g-string.

second position: On the G string, your index finger should shift to lign up with with the "A" note and then your ring finger will more or less be able land on the B without stretching too much which then means you can make sure it is properly arched away from the string below. The question is also one of risha timing, just keep practicing.


Brian Prunka - 1-11-2016 at 12:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
so you play the B note with the ring finger, what finger plays the A?
if its the middle finger you have the issue right there. It should be played with your index, this will allow you to play the B with your ring finger without stretching much.

To play these notes properly, usually its best to switch to what I call "second position" I don't think there is an officially accepted list of hand position on the oud like on the violin. I don't have great hand flexibility and I don't use my pinky much so I always switch position for Ajam on C as I get to the g-string.

second position: On the G string, your index finger should shift to lign up with with the "A" note and then your ring finger will more or less be able land on the B without stretching too much which then means you can make sure it is properly arched away from the string below. The question is also one of risha timing, just keep practicing.




Hmm . . . really you need to be able to both. What about hijaz from G? Yes, 1st finger on A and 3rd on B is the standard position for ajam on C, but I doubt that this is the source of the problem.
If he was playing A with the 2nd finger, then B would be the 4th.

SamirCanada - 1-11-2016 at 01:00 PM

Yes you should be able to do both but I think for many, the pinky is a problem. if you look at the old school players they don't use the pinky much. Now I know more modern virtuosos, say Simon Shaheen, would say its important to be able to play as effortlessly as possible and so you have to develop your hand muscles to play with the 4th finger.

I am not a theory buff, I play by ear so I play hijaz on G as follows: open G, index on Ab, ring finger on the 3rd note (I think between B and B# right?)
if I want to "train my fingers" I sometimes force myself to play the 3rd note with my pinky finger but it doesn't sound as good.

Brian Prunka - 1-11-2016 at 02:09 PM

You're right that in many cases where the 4th finger would be logical, the older style players used (and still use) the 3rd finger. Sometimes this is necessary for a particular sound/ornament—such as the way you describe hijaz (though it is between A# and B).

I don't think this was necessarily about a lack of ability to use the 4th finger, at least when considering players like Sounbati or Farid.
There are many cases where the 4th finger needs to be used and always has been used when necessary:

Saba (whether on D, G or C)
Hijaz on C (on the A and C courses)
Bayati on G (frequently used for ornaments on the 3rd note)
Nahawand and Rast on C (to get F on the top string)

You can see in videos that Farid was very adept with the 4th finger and would use it when he wanted to, but for musical effect would sometimes not use it because it sounds different.

But regardless, the OP said he was using the 3rd (ring) finger for B, not the 4th (pinky) finger, so that's not the problem here. That's mainly what I was getting at, sorry it wasn't clear. My mention of hijaz was to make the point that the "stretching" isn't the issue either, as the stretch with hijaz is even greater and yet there is no problem there either.

Al Hamar - 1-11-2016 at 04:53 PM

I'll make a video within the next couple days.

When playing the A note on Ajam I use my index and my ring finger for the B note. As for G Hijaz I do index on Ab and pinky on B. Hijaz is quite a stretch for me so it makes sense to use the pinky and have good control over it.

I have small fingers and they are not fat. I actually have very small hands which helps with the narrow spacing. I guess maybe it's the course of strings that makes the spacing less. It's just about adapting I guess.

Don't get me wrong. I am able to play with all fingers quite easily. I have a lot of experience in other stringed instruments (Bass, Persian Setar, Indian Sitar, Guitar etc..) and quite proficient in Arabic Ney (hence why I am familiar with the Maqam). So, I am technically new to the oud but by no means starting from no where.

Get back to you guys soon. I'll work it out I am sure. I'm just being fussy.

Thanks.