Mike's Oud Forums

Questions from a beginner about buying a new oud

ChanningPDX - 10-18-2016 at 10:17 PM

Hi all,

First off, thanks in advance for taking the time to consider my query.

So, I'm here because--presumably like just about all of you--I've become obsessed with the oud.

Since spending a few weeks in the Middle East and Turkey almost four years ago, Arabic, Judeo-Arabic/Mizrachi, and Turkish music have become a pretty significant part of my musical diet. I love listening to the likes of Munir Bashir, Farid Al-Atrash, Naseer Shamma, Ziv Yehezkel, Yurdal Tokcan, Florian Baron, etc., etc.

I may be completely new to the oud, but I'm not new to music, I played in youth orchestras as a child, was a serious competitor in Scottish bagpiping competitions in my teens and twenties, and have played Irish traditional music on the uilleann pipes and wooden flute at a professional level for nearly 15 years. I know the basics with the guitar, though it's never been an instrument that I've played all that seriously. I had been learning some Turkish makams adapted for the guitar from Murat Keydar's videos on Youtube, but that's just not enough for me. I'd really like to take the plunge and begin exploring Arabic music properly on the oud--preferably one that sounds good and is well made.

I'm also on a very tight budget, and that's always the trick, isn't it? I spoke about this a while back with Tarik Banzi (an excellent player who lives here in Portland), and he said that he often advises his new students to buy a cheap Turkish oud--even the $300 factory-made ones can be decent instruments, he says.

I recently saw some instruments like this. Has anyone had direct experience playing Sala's instruments and know if they're reasonably decent?

I also looked at Cankaya Music's instruments (which I drooled at when I was in Istanbul a few years ago), and this looked like it would probably be a good bet, but at around $700, it's likely a bit beyond my price range. (It's not so much a matter of saving up the money but more what expense my wife is willing to to let me get away with.) The $350.00 model (here) didn't look like it was quite as good as the Sala model above (e.g., rosewood fingerboard and pegs instead of ebony), but obviously there's not much I can tell from just looking at a picture on the Internet. The one nice touch with the Sandi instruments from Cankaya is that they all include a hard case, while the Sala ouds only include a soft one. Again, any opinions from people who have played these instruments would be appreciated.

Of course, if a good-quality used oud came up for sale, that might be ideal, but I'm just trying to narrow down my options at this point. Believe me, coming from the world of uilleann pipes (where it's become very hard to find a good, new instrument for less than $10,000), I've met plenty of well-meaning people who wasted their money on expensive firewood that they bought off the Internet...

I've already read through the FAQ here and looked at some other oud info sites, but any additional advice from any of you out there would be greatly appreciated!

شكرا/Teşekkürler/תודה/Thanks!

ChanningPDX - 10-18-2016 at 10:51 PM

OK, since writing this a few days ago, I've done a little more reading on the forum, and given the incident involving a certain forum member promoting the wares of Trirmusic in a not entirely honest fashion, I think that's been removed from the running...

Also, having talked a little more about budget matters with the missus, it looks like I may be able to invest a little more into buying a quality instrument. Ordering a reduced price oud by Faruk Türünz or one of Yildirim Palabayik's ouds _may_ be a possibility a few months down the road...

Of course, if anyone has had recent experience with instruments by those makers or has other makers in that general price range to recommend, I'd be interested in getting your perspective.

One remaining question, then:

I've noticed that when oud makers and/or players mention "standard Arabic tuning", it's usually CFAdgc--except for when it's DGAdgc. When buying strings, do most sets allow for the bottom two courses to be adjusted from C and F to D and G and vice versa... or is it a bit more... complicated?

Ouds

Edward6311 - 10-18-2016 at 10:55 PM

Channing,

I live in Portland and have three ouds of different quality, including my new Faruk Turunz custom Oud, A $350 factory oud and an older 1961 Oud from Palestine. I would be willing to show you all three to help in your decision.

I am also currently taking lessons from a great teacher who teaches in SE Portland if your interested.

Edward

Brian Prunka - 10-19-2016 at 04:44 AM

Before investing significant money, I would encourage you to consider which oud sounds you are really looking for. While Turunz and Yildirim's ouds are excellent, they don't have a classic Arabic sound. You can get one made for Arabic tuning, but it still has a different sound that, while very good, isn't the 'classic' sound in Arabic music.

You mention a wide variety of music/players in your post and so it's not clear what sound you really are attracted to. Farid el-Atrache, Yurdal Tokcan, and Naseer Shamma are practically playing three different instruments.

It's certainly easier to find a high-quality Turkish oud at a reasonable price compared to Arabic ouds.

Regarding tuning: most standard sets are actually set up with some leeway so that you can retune the bottom two courses if necessary. Most professionals get custom sets for the oud and tuning they use.

ChanningPDX - 10-19-2016 at 08:24 PM

Yes, of course, Brian. That's a very good point, and it's something that I've been thinking a lot about.

I'm aware that Turkish-made Arabic-tuned ouds often don't sound very traditionally "Arabic." This is, again, remarkably similar to what one finds in the Irish music world (and many other musical traditions, I'm sure). Two sets of pipes by different makers can have incredibly different tonal qualities depending on very subtle changes to the reed design, bore taper, etc.

While I want to focus on the core Arabic tradition and repertoire, I do enjoy listening to a lot of Turkish players. (I'm listening to some sublime playing from Tolga Karaslan on Youtube as I type this, actually). While I realize it's not strictly "traditional," I tend to like the clear, crisp sound of many Turkish-made Arabic-tuned ouds that I've heard. Tareq Al-Jundi's playing on a Palabayik oud is perhaps the closest to the sound I consider ideal. The price to quality ratio doesn't hurt either...

But who knows? As I listen and learn, that could certainly change... Certainly, if a good used Arabic oud turned up for sale, I'd seriously consider it.

(Edward--thanks for the offer and the info. I'll send you a U2U.)

ma_sabba - 10-20-2016 at 11:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ChanningPDX  

One remaining question, then:

I've noticed that when oud makers and/or players mention "standard Arabic tuning", it's usually CFAdgc--except for when it's DGAdgc. When buying strings, do most sets allow for the bottom two courses to be adjusted from C and F to D and G and vice versa... or is it a bit more... complicated?


To answer the question - while ADGC is rather fixed the tuning of the two low strings often depends on the school of playing, the preferences of the player, and the needs of the song. For example when I play maqam Rahat al-Arwah (which has a root note in B half-flat) I often drop the C string to B-half flat in order to support the tonic, or drop it to A to support maqam Saba rooted on the respective note, or sometimes tuning it to D will give a richer sounding, more sustained/easily accessible note for songs on D than the fingered note. As for F/G some players seem to strongly believe in G, the reason being that many Arabic compositions are centered on that note and it's rich/sustained/accessible. I personally prefer F but switch to G when necessary; for example listen to Tareq al-Jundi's rendition of Bach's cello suite: extremely difficult/painful to play with an F string, so why not "free your fingers" and tune to G?
https://youtu.be/FxbgGzbYBBo

The other common tuning in the Arab world is F/G ADGCf . Many players use a single F string (double makes it more time consuming to tune) and in this case the low string can become quite labile ie tuned to E-half flat or D based on the scale.

It is important to note that A440 tuning conventions are a relatively modern attempt at standardization: many players simply tune by ear to their voice/their own reference and I have heard ouds end up more than an entire tone higher (not recommended) or lower than A440! In Farid's "عيش انت" for example his oud is tuned to around a semitone lower than today's standard. So concepts like "perfect pitch" don't traditionally exist in Arabic tuning. But to answer your question, modern ouds and string sets are usually VERY accommodating; with caution advised for antique ouds which may not handle higher tension string sets.

Cheers,
Mohamed

ChanningPDX - 10-20-2016 at 08:43 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Mohamed. (And thanks for the link to Tareq Al-Jundi playing Bach--hadn't seen that one yet, and he did a fantastic job of it.)

The more I learn about all of this stuff, the more exciting all of it is...

There's a flute player I know who is obsessed with playing at A=432... I know other musicians who insist on tuning up to A = 447. In that sense, there's no such thing as "perfect pitch," I guess...