Mike's Oud Forums

My review of Pyramid black nylon set, plus soundclip

charlie oud - 3-4-2017 at 04:21 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4JWsZRKULU

Dear members, This forum has many threads referring to the need to experiment with string makes and tensions. I have been playing the Oud for about 10 years and the guitar all my life. Black nylon has received almost continual negative comments on the Spanish guitar and the oud but my curiosity to test this has led me to fit a set of Pyramid yellow label to my Sukar oud. This set consists of C, F, A, d (copper colour wound bass strings) and g, c, black nylon.
The set is similar in tension to the Orange label set. Starting with the bass strings. These sound well on my Sukar a little less metallic in tone than the silver coloured ones and with slightly more, or at least different, presence, fuller perhaps?. They are very well made and the wound surface is very good, definitely equal to the silver bass strings. So this was the first myth blown apart, there is no less quality of manufacture with these copper colour bass strings. Another myth I can bust is that their intonation, often criticised, is unjustified. The intonation is perfect. Overall, I like them just as much and may grow to prefer them.
Now on to the black nylon, the real controversial strings, cursed regularly but with no real descriptive reason why. Again the tension is very similar to the Orange label plain g and c. Unwrapping them, they felt less floppy, slightly harder to the touch. This was confirmed tying the knot at the bridge, it felt quite different to the clear nylon. As I tuned them up they seemed less stretchy and as they arrived at pitch I was struck by the open and clear sound of the g course, fresh, like a sound that had space if you get what I mean. This was the same for the c course. A bit of stretching and then I began to play some improvised maqam. To begin with I stayed on the black nylon strings with a Bayati on g. I was delighted. For me they have more 'click' when struck with my favorite thin plastic risha. This gave the music a stronger percussive quality than clear nylon, though some may not like this. The tone is more dry but slightly less nasal than plain nylon unless you play very near the bridge. Different rishee gave different sounds as is the case with clear nylon but the range of tone on black nylon with different rishee was surprising as the sound altered a lot more. Time now to bust another myth, as with the copper bass these black nylon strings also have perfect intonation. I can understand how some people have called them brittle or hard sounding but this is not really how I hear it at all. 'Hard' or 'brittle' is not an accurate description of their sound. To my ears they are open and clear in tone, their lack of any 'milky' nasality could be mistaken for a lack of warmth to some but for me they are very nice. I will leave them on my Sukar as when I relaxed and went into a Rast using the whole set it felt damn good. I've been here before with the string thing just like many of us have but I am glad I've fitted this Pyramid yellow label set. It is now up there with any other brand and tension I have tried and I have a box full of strings from past experiments. They may end up being my first choice!!! My Sukar sounds happy too !!!!:airguitar: This set as with many others is available from Oudstrings.com and by the way, I'm no expert, I'm just sharing an experience with a set of strings. Cheers:)

smaller 001.JPG - 99kB

MattOud - 3-4-2017 at 07:15 AM

Thanx for the helpful review Charlie!
I just tried the pyramid oranges for the first time myself, and one thing to mention as well is that my strings didn't sound good to me at all for the first couple of days. Maybe it was the drastic change from the older worn set i had on-ha ha- but it took a couple days for them to really set in. They i found the sound even changed a bit while they settled in, much more mature sounding. Did you find this with the blacks? Did you find they settled in good after a few days? I mention this because my normal experience with strings(such as elixers for my guitars) is they sound great out of the package...but with these it seemed to take a few days before i felt that way...
I also found that i didn't like the feeling of the string surfaces of the metal wound strings at first, but again, a few days in and they seemed perfectly smooth, like the nylons. I really like pyramid oranges. I want to try the blacks now as well.
Cheers,
Matt

charlie oud - 3-4-2017 at 08:11 AM

You make good points Matt and the yellow label set has only been on for a few days. They're settling well and I think the black nylon is a little less stretchy, feels that way and they've held their tuning quite well and I think they're approaching being fully stretched/settled. You're not alone with that 'new string' feeling, takes about a week for me before I know for sure. I'm expecting the copper wounds to dull soon, the surface to smooth more and give that older string feeling, which I prefer. I am very pleased with the yellow label set. Don't know why they're not more popular?. I used the Orange label set a lot and I like them too. Much will depend on the oud, the playing style, technique and risha but without doubt this yellow label set is as fine a set as any and I'm so glad I put them on. I will update this thread if there is anything more to add to the review in a week or so. Cheers.

Jody Stecher - 3-4-2017 at 08:43 AM

Charlie, will you please say a bit more about what you mean about the intonation being true? The oud is fretless so proper intonation depends on the player, on where the fingers are placed on the strings. Do you mean that the two strings in a course show no discrepancy of pitch? Or something else?

Khalil_Oud - 3-4-2017 at 10:12 AM

Hi Charlie,
Thank you very much for your Black P. strings assessment, very relevant and concise ! I have never used the black label, so your post helps a lot, many thanks! I Have a question to you/reader too: I use Pyramid premium, sometimes labella on my ouds (al-Tayyar) and I’m wondering how the cooper strings (the C, F, A, & D) can be compared (Yello or orange labels versus pyramid premium): are they similar... Thank you !

charlie oud - 3-4-2017 at 10:13 AM

Hi Jody, sure I will try explain. My comment on the intonation refers to pitch. Even though the oud is fretless we still need the skill to select the note of our choice. So what I mean is that when I select say the note 'c' (open string first course) then by ear place my finger near the body for the note 'g' on that same string and then strike the open 'g' (2nd course open) I here a perfect octave between these two notes and a perfect 5th if I alternate between the open 'c' and the higher 'g'. Boy, that sounds complicated but but hope you understand. There is also no discrepancy between the single strings of the courses. I've had intonation problems before especially with Aquilla nyle gut. Hope this answers your question. Cheers

charlie oud - 3-4-2017 at 10:25 AM

Hi Khalil. They are not greatly different and I will need a few more days for them to settle fully but right now I find them slightly more mellow, slightly less bright and they sound nice as you move through the maqam on the lower strings. I like their voice and I like the way they all sound as a set. What is most interesting about this set is how it will give many different sounds with different rishee. More so than the other Pyramid sets. You're welcome regards my review but of course each player will always make their own assessment. Cheers

Jody Stecher - 3-4-2017 at 10:56 AM

But if you place your finger at the appropriate spots on any fretless fingerboard any and all strings will give forth the desired pitch, the only exception being the Nylgut problem, which I have also experienced, and which was a big disappointment since I liked the tonal quality of those strings. How is your skill at accurate finger placement to be understood as a virtue of a particular brand of string? I don't doubt your experience, I just don't understand your interpretation.
Quote: Originally posted by charlie oud  
Hi Jody, sure I will try explain. My comment on the intonation refers to pitch. Even though the oud is fretless we still need the skill to select the note of our choice. So what I mean is that when I select say the note 'c' (open string first course) then by ear place my finger near the body for the note 'g' on that same string and then strike the open 'g' (2nd course open) I here a perfect octave between these two notes and a perfect 5th if I alternate between the open 'c' and the higher 'g'. Boy, that sounds complicated but but hope you understand. There is also no discrepancy between the single strings of the courses. I've had intonation problems before especially with Aquilla nyle gut. Hope this answers your question. Cheers

charlie oud - 3-4-2017 at 11:31 AM

Oh boy Jody, you're making this hard work. Look, if you place your finger at any point on the fingerboard you will get a pitch in relation to that open string so with your oud in tune. 1. play an open string 2. then play another note on that string, any note you desire. Now then, if on this same oud playing the same sequence, fitted with a different make of string and you find your finger has to be placed slightly further up the fingerboard or less further up the fingerboard to get the same note, then there is a difference in the string. One will be true and the other not. A discrepancy between each string of the same course is more common than both being flat or sharp. From what I understand this is due to a string not being perfect in diameter along it's whole vibrating length. Do you follow? Sorry if I'm not explaining it well but am trying my best.

Jody Stecher - 3-4-2017 at 01:57 PM

I follow theoretically but every type of unwound string I've used on any oud gives the desired pitch at the expected points on the fingerboard. Uneven diameter was a problem with plain gut strings right through the 19th century and occasionally in more recent times with compound strings, such as classical guitar wound strings stuffed with silk or synthetic filaments. So far in my life I have never heard of any type of nylon *unwound* string having an uneven diameter. When there is an intonation problem with a new unwound nylon string it is because the tension, diameter, scale length, and fret positions do not coordinate well. As for used plain nylon, that is another matter. Frets, fingers, plectrums, dead skin, etc all contribute to the perfect diameter being lost.
If I am wrong, and there are types of new (unused) unwound synthetic strings that are not true due to uneven diameter I am receptive to being corrected. But in 60 years of playing string music, using many brands of strings, I have yet to see, hear, or encounter this.
Quote: Originally posted by charlie oud  
Oh boy Jody, you're making this hard work. Look, if you place your finger at any point on the fingerboard you will get a pitch in relation to that open string so with your oud in tune. 1. play an open string 2. then play another note on that string, any note you desire. Now then, if on this same oud playing the same sequence, fitted with a different make of string and you find your finger has to be placed slightly further up the fingerboard or less further up the fingerboard to get the same note, then there is a difference in the string. One will be true and the other not. A discrepancy between each string of the same course is more common than both being flat or sharp. From what I understand this is due to a string not being perfect in diameter along it's whole vibrating length. Do you follow? Sorry if I'm not explaining it well but am trying my best.

SamirCanada - 3-4-2017 at 03:35 PM

Could you please make us a little video or sound sample so we can hear it?

charlie oud - 3-5-2017 at 08:19 AM

Jody, I don't think you are wrong at all but perhaps lucky. The problem is thankfully rare. New plain nylon and more so Nylgut have occasionally been reported as giving a flat or sharp note at a given point of the fingerboard on Guitar, oud and ukulele. The reason I mentioned intonation in my review is because plain black nylon has been mentioned a number of times as having this fault. This was not the case with the set I have reviewed. You asked me, 'will you please say a bit more about what you mean about the intonation being true'. I said 'sure'. I have done so and really can't think of anymore to say. I'm not sure what your problem is with my reference to intonation or my review but it doesn't seem you have found it helpful. I've also no problem with you or anyone disputing what I have said. I didn't write it for self gratifying purposes but only because people may find it helpful. I don't feel a need to justify anything I have said in the review and haven't really the time to keep responding to you quoting every reply I make. This is the first review of an oud string set I have made on this forum, and probably the last if I have to keep explaining myself. I am gald at least 2 people have said they found it helpful.

Jody Stecher - 3-5-2017 at 08:42 AM

I am astonished at your response. My questions were reasonable in content, civil in tone, and entirely respectful. The key to understanding the part of your post that I questioned was that black nylon has been said to produce intonation problems. You alluded to this in your initial post but I didn't catch on.
I believe the purpose of a forum is discussion.

charlie oud - 3-5-2017 at 09:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
My questions were reasonable in content, civil in tone, and entirely respectful.
I believe the purpose of a forum is discussion.

That is true Jody. My apologies.

Jody Stecher - 3-5-2017 at 10:19 AM

Charlie, you apology is wholeheartedly accepted. Keep the reviews coming. I'll read them twice before asking questions. :-)

charlie oud - 3-5-2017 at 11:44 AM

No worries Jody and thank you, and I'll give more attention to how I answer questions. Cheers.

charlie oud - 3-6-2017 at 09:34 AM

Hi Samir, have added a sound clip to the original post

MattOud - 3-6-2017 at 07:34 PM

Those sound amazing! Nice playing as well!
To me that sound is pretty much perfect for what i like in tone. That Sukar sounds really nice.
Lovely, soothing.

Brian Prunka - 3-6-2017 at 08:59 PM

Just going to mention that the winding on these is not copper, but a brass alloy of some kind.

charlie oud - 3-7-2017 at 02:16 AM

Thank you very much Matt, glad you like it. Also thanks to Brian for the correction re the string material.

charlie oud - 3-9-2017 at 12:39 PM

Update. The strings have been on for over a week now and I feel convinced they are slightly lower tension than the orange label set with the possible exception of the low 'C'. This is confirmed by my checking the wing nut was tight inside my Sukar as it has adjustable action, something which needs to be done when strings are changed. It was a tiny bit loose. I managed to ease my hand in between the 3rd and 4th course without loosening the strings. I never felt I could do this with the orange label set. To my ears they are still sounding great and I have ordered more from Brian at oudstrings.com.

yavaran - 3-28-2017 at 10:27 AM

Could this set be used for DGADGC' tuning?

Matthias - 3-30-2017 at 04:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by yavaran  
Could this set be used for DGADGC' tuning?

find here the detailed description:
https://music-strings.de/Pyramid-Ud-strings-yellow-set-11-strings

changing a string by a half note, the tension will change by 3 Newton. Following this you will then have 43 Newton for the low C. This i quite a high tension and a too high tension for a fixed bridge.

Matthias