DavidJE - 12-3-2017 at 05:44 AM
My right hand/picking technique was pretty bad for a long time, partially due I think to only having Skype lessons. A year and a half or so ago I
went back to the basics and worked only on picking exercises with no fingering for more than a month, and then continued to do picking-only exercises
at the beginning of each practice. My picking has definitely improved, but I still feel I have a good bit of work to do.
In some posts on this forum Brian described picking mechanics in a way that was pretty clear to me...that it should primarily come from a rotation of
the forearm and not from wrist movement/flexing or entire arm movement. Among other things I have been focusing on doing that correctly and not using
my entire arm, wrist, or even thumb to do the picking.
This weekend however Joe Tawadros was in town and in the course of hanging out and talking I mentioned to him that speed in things like tremolo and
note runs is something I'm pretty bad at. He made a video for me with a speed exercises he likes, and also posted part of it on Facebook. I'm not
sure how to link to FB videos, but if you go to Facebook, search for Joseph Tawadros, and look at his page, you'll see the video there. What I
noticed in his video is that he moves his elbow with just about every pick movement. When his pick goes down his elbow moves up a little, and when
his pick goes up his elbow goes down a little. It seems like he might be using a *little* bit of forearm rotation, but especially when he goes fast
he is mostly using a vertical kind of motion with his forearm rather than a rotation.
Looking at videos of a number of really good players, many of them seem to do that, especially when playing faster. You can see it in this video of
Yurdal Tokcan for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ9OVV1Bt90
In contrast, you can see in the last video I posted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVYmDKOxyLs) that I basically plant my forearm on my oud and there is no up and down movement as long as I am
picking on one string. Both Joe and Yurdal, and other highly regarded players I've looked at, have a pretty good bit of up and down forearm
movement...not really a forearm rotation.
As another example, when I look at Mav's playing, he generally seems to plant his forearm and use rotation, but when doing tremolo he looks like he
uses a very small vertical movement to some degree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJjBg-NqtEo
So I'm questioning my technique, or what I viewed as "proper" technique. For you more experienced oud players...does the technique change somewhat
when playing faster? I definitely find that if I use more very small/short vertical forearm movement I can do tremolo much, much faster and much,
much easier than with forearm rotation. People like Joe though seem to be using this vertical forearm movement even when picking slowly. Thoughts?
mavrothis - 12-3-2017 at 06:39 AM
Hi David,
As your former teacher, I feel bad that you still feel you are struggling with picking. It means I didn't really help you in that department. I'm
sorry for that.
Honestly, I believe there are different ways to pick and there isn't just one best or correct way. This applies to how the pick is held, and how the
hand and arm move.
If you look around, most respected guitarists pick differently (and use different picks or only fingers) and still do great things - any instrument
family has examples of variability in the use of hands or embouchure that is acceptable.
Some of it comes down to actual body size, proportions and mechanics.
Anyway, I think you are very perceptive and work/practice hard. Whether you just need some more patience before you get to your next plateau of skill
level, or should try adjusting something in your technique, you should experiment and see what works better for you. Honestly, I don't think most of
us thought about all of these details so much, and just did what felt most natural. Sometimes this got me in trouble, especially early on.
The one thing I think is universal however is feeling loose as you play. Locking up your wrist, elbow or shoulder, or squeezing the pick too hard in
your palm to go "faster" is not the answer. I play my best when I am loose, and have worked through my material slowly and methodically so I am
practicing efficient and comfortable movements throughout, even fast passages when playing at performing tempo. This goes for tremolo as well.
Different approaches to picking also can really affect tone - so as you experiment see what tone you prefer, including pick angle picking
direction.
mav
Khalil_Oud - 12-3-2017 at 06:55 AM
Hi David,
These are good questions, and I can tel you, from my experience (playing many styles : andalousian, oriental and some turkish) that there is no one
way, it depend on what you want to do. Yes in the video that you suggest, Yurdal played more with his ''elbow'', but in others video of him, he
doesn't move his Elbow at all. The reasons are : First, when you play fast, you need control of Tempo and coordination more than playing other styles,
That's why Yurdal was playing the same. The second reason is the power: you can notice that Yurdal was playing strong. To have powerful playing (if
you need it or decide it), you need to use all your arm (torque force). Playing taqssim, with vibrato doesn't need to use the elbow, only the wrist.
Also, the other important reason is when you play fast and you need to go up and down on strings (like sirto/Yurdal), you need to use your elbow to
control what are you doing. When you play more phrases on the same string, you use your wrist. So, It depend on the strength, the changes (going up
and down fast on the strings) and the speed.
Here is an example : Said Chraibi is known to play strong (inherited from andalousian style), so he use his elbow most of time like in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGA6dFWcYqc&list=PLy_v5NJ4jGTpnp...
But when you see him playing in a studio (not strong) and melody like taqssim, he doesn't use his elbow, he use his ''poignet'' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7-yEZrP_WQ&list=PLy_v5NJ4jGTpnp...
Hope that helps to find your right technic.
Regards,
DavidJE - 12-3-2017 at 06:55 AM
Thanks Mav!
You definitely have no blame whatsoever in my uncertainty about picking! I figured you would respond in basically the way that you did. I love and
appreciate your approach to the oud and music in general, as you know. You are one of my all-time favorite musicians. With that said, your approach
can lead to some uncertainty for me while I find my own way...in the process of looking for what works best for me I am uncertain about exactly what I
should do or what I will find. I know it's a process of trial and error, and discovery. I guess I am/was perhaps looking for a short cut, for
someone to say "do it like this". That is an easier route, and some people definitely do have a certain way they think these things should be
done.
I think my current picking style has been at least to some significant degree influenced by your style. When I saw how Joe picked in that video, and
in the video I linked to of Yurdal, that method goes against what I've read on this forum. You seem to vary your style depending on what you are
doing, which I guess is in line with what you wrote above. Anyway, I wondered if I might be missing some little detail regarding arm movement for
faster picking or tremolo. I have also surely forgotten some of the good advice you've given me!
Thanks for the great response!
DavidJE - 12-3-2017 at 06:57 AM
Thank you Khalil! This makes sense and is in line with what Mav also wrote. Thanks for the video links, too.
mavrothis - 12-3-2017 at 07:15 AM
You're very generous as always David. I'm sure your keen eye and work ethic will
get you exactly where you want to go, and beyond.
Khalil, thank you for bringing up Said Chraibi. So inspiring - one of the best ever. Whenever I get a chance to listen to him after extended time not
listening to his playing, I always wonder, "what took me so long to come back and listen to Mr. Chraibi?"
SamirCanada - 12-3-2017 at 08:54 AM
Some great advice here Khalil and Mav.
For what it's worth I have looked at your video David. It seems to me that you are thinking too much and as a result not very loose. I think also for
my part, it's important to be able to do a bit of both forearm only and also whole arm playing because sometimes you need the different sound in a
musical passage.
DavidJE - 12-3-2017 at 09:52 AM
Thanks guys!
BTW, here is a link to Joe's video: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1738779249517544&id=167094443352707
Jody Stecher - 12-3-2017 at 11:05 AM
I looked at the first few minutes of the JT video. I cannot see his right elbow so I don't know how you can see his elbow moving. But what I do see
might be helpful.
His wrist is comfortably bent. I think this is crucial. The wrist does seem to participate in the stroke. If you power a down stroke from the wrist
when it is bent like that the forearm automatically rotates.
David, you know, you can use the force of gravity as well as muscle. This is done by letting the hand fall. One might think "oh, if gravity powers the
downstroke then muscle must power the upstroke. But that ignores Newton's third law of motion. If your downstrokes are mostly rest strokes the risha
is allowed to "bounce" off the string physically below the string that has been sounded. But the "bounce thing" is maybe 20 % of what happens. There
is also a muscle "spasm" thing that happens. If you throw your right hand downward with no oud nearby and no plectrum in the hand you will see that if
you don't interfere with what happens naturally, the hand starts back up towards where it started. And of course it takes the arm along with it.
A negative approach may be helpful. Refrain from 3 things.
Do not grab anything tightly
Refrain from thinking
Do not cease to breathe!!
SufianSaeed - 12-3-2017 at 03:54 PM
maybe you should try Munir's bashir picking style , you might feel comfortable with that
majnuunNavid - 12-3-2017 at 11:09 PM
Hi David,
I've been looking at my arm when I play and I find that my elbow invariably has no choice but to move a little bit when playing certain things. There
is a range of motion that requires the forearm to "teeter totter" on the edge of the Oud so to speak. More forceful playing requires this. The energy
has to go somewhere and it seems to need to flow through the forearm and to the elbow.
On the other hand, certain quick passages I tend to use the "close approach". Small efficient movements that are powerful. I keep the risha sticking
out between a .5 cm to no more than 1 cm from my index finger. So I sometimes observe that my elbow doesn't move much when playing a fast passage
requiring quick, small, powerful movements.
A few years ago I started practicing alternate picking on parallel strings. So on open C and G I play down on C and up on G. I first started
practicing this alternate picking when playing Mandolin in a folk band at a theme park. I thought this was impossible on Oud previously, but now it's
an essential part of my playing.
I'm not sure if you already use this technique, but this changed the game completely for me. I discovered that this technique is used on Oud from this
forum, and it's taught by Simon Shaheen. I don't even know how many Oud players use this.
I have mixed feelings about changing one's technique after learning a certain method. Just look at the way Cinucen Tanrikorur plays and you'll see
that it's possible to play well even when you bend your thumb in that manner! However, after watching your playing I think your playing would benefit
from a little elbow action.
MattOud - 12-4-2017 at 05:23 AM
very nice thread that is helpful to others like me as well!
btw- just for interests sake... if anyone wants to 'save' these videos to practice offline, here is how:
1. right click on facebook video and select 'show video URL' and then copy it to your clipboard.
2. paste the url in a new browser window
3. change the www to m so for example on this video of joesph's lesson you will have change to this: https://m.facebook.com/joe.tawadros/videos/10159644847905176/
4. you can then right click on video and save it as a mobile version to practice offline anywhere...
SamirCanada - 12-4-2017 at 07:21 AM
some interesting thoughts here.
if you look at some of the classical Turkish players, like Mehmet Bitmez below, you can see there is a conscious effort to plant the elbow and use the
wrist a lot more than in other more arab styles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylzt3GJmY0E
I don't know how people play like this for hours as it would tire me out very quickly. I guess you build up the endurance for it eventually.
even when you watch Simon Shaheen carefully, which is probably the technique described by Brian in your original post. you can see when there needs to
be a strong attack to sustain a tremolo he does exactly what Jodi is saying above. which is you raise your risha a bit higher and you use a strong
attack to get a rebound effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyNXeCfPB2U
Good luck with everything David but most importantly don't forget to have fun with playing because otherwise it will be hard to remain loose.
DavidJE - 12-4-2017 at 11:09 AM
Thanks for all the responses guys!
Jody, I cannot actually see Joe's elbow, but it is clear from the way his forearm is moving that his elbow must be moving, unless it is somehow
unattached from his forearm. I will certainly keep your things to avoid in mind, and experiment with using gravity.
Navid, the "teeter totter" is what I see Joe's arm doing in that video. I think some of that "teeter totter" or elbow action definitely works for me.
I'm not sure if it is the best way for me or not, but I'm going to keep experimenting to find what works best for me. It does seem like as Khalil
wrote, that when you want to play harder or faster, that kind of motion can be useful. I'm sure it's not the only way, but it does seem to be one
good way.
Also, no worries guys...I am having a great deal of fun with the oud. It's the only reason I play and practice, because I love it. I tend to always
look for the most efficient and effective techniques and methods of practice (doesn't mean I always find them!). That doesn't detract from my
enjoyment. I approach everything from a variety of directions, and this analytical approach is just one of those directions.
Brian Prunka - 12-4-2017 at 08:53 PM
This is a really interesting observation. I think you may be on to something.
I'd noticed this motion as well, but always considered it to be just a consequence of other motions . . . if your arm is relaxed, then any motion will
create some ancillary motions.
But I watched the players you mentioned and spent about 30 minutes watching myself play in the mirror and I think there may be more to it—that in
addition to the forearm rotation (which is present in all the videos you mentioned), the contrary motion of the elbow and hand with a pivot around the
point where the arm meets the edge of the face does seem like an additional secondary motion that has an impact and is helpful in some cases.
This is a lot different than the "motion from the elbow" that I think I talked about previously, in which the elbow is the pivot point and the whole
forearm is moving up/down from there. In that case, the elbow isn't moving much, but the hand and forearm make an arc.
In watching your video, my impression is that you are trying too hard to isolate the forearm so that nothing else moves. This has some value as an
exercise, particularly if you had an earlier habit of using a lot of up/down motion and wanted to strengthen and refine the muscle control of your
forearm. But a more relaxed approach would likely help regardless of what other changes you might try.
DavidJE - 12-4-2017 at 11:46 PM
Brian, I think you are correct about this motion not being a "motion from the elbow" but being on a pivot point around where the arm meets the edge of
the face of the oud. I liked Navid's description of it being a "teeter totter", because that is what it implied to me.
Regarding me being tense or relaxed, I'm not sure why many of you have mentioned that I need a more relaxed approach, at least based on the video I
linked to. I tend to be a very relaxed person. A massage therapist went to and a physical therapist I go to both told me that they had never felt
anyone who was as relaxed as I was, and when I play the oud I generally feel equally relaxed. The exception for me is when I try to play very quickly
(for me). Then I do tend to grip the pick harder and tense up a bit. I'm working on relaxing completely when doing that too now, and focusing on
smaller movements rather than faster big movements. I think my biggest issue with speed in playing was that I was trying to make the same big
movements, only a lot faster. Anyway, maybe it's my appearance in the videos...I tend to look serious or tense? I'm actually not very serious at
all, either...but I know I can come across that way.
Regarding me trying hard to keep my forearm planted...I'm really not trying that at all. I think it comes from having practiced ONLY picking
exercises with my forearm planted for something like 2 months, and then that being 90% of my practice for another month. I took about 3 months to try
to retrain my right hand, and I still do those basic down-up and down-up-down picking exercises at the beginning of most practices. I think my brain
is just wired that way now.
Back to picking in general though, I think this "teeter totter" motion with the pivot point on the face of the oud can definitely be useful.
Brian Prunka - 12-5-2017 at 08:30 AM
I didn't mean that you were tense, just that the arm should be freer to move slightly. Maybe "loose" rather than "relaxed"?
Also, I think that the thumb is really useful and some thumb motion is really helpful, especially for accents and articulation.
In all, the forearm rotation is the primary motion but in actual practice there is a complex interplay of several motions, including the thumb and
wrist. And in some cases, the oscillation of the forearm as you are pointing out here.
DavidJE - 12-5-2017 at 09:23 AM
Great summary Brian. For me, working to improve my picking, it's good to have an intellectual understanding of these things. I think your last
paragraph above is very useful.
newlife_ks - 12-5-2017 at 10:03 AM
I want to add another aspect of right hand technique that bothers me. I switched to the oud having playing electric guitar for a long time. My picking
technique there was parallel to the soundboard. I tried to transfer this way of picking to the oud which was successful, but at one point I noticed
that many players on youtube tended to strike the risha towards the soundboard with the risha hitting the higher string when playing single notes.
Trying this by myself I noticed that melody playing worked for me, but playing tremolo is awkward. I simply don't get a fluent sounding result as with
parallel picking. Tremolo on the bass strings is nearly impossible for me. Does anybody have clues how to optimize my new technique, or are there any
objections? What is your preferred way of picking?