Mike's Oud Forums

Segah / Sika questions...

Chris-Stephens - 8-27-2019 at 03:09 PM

Hey all, I'm wondering if anyone can offer insight into the regional differences concerning the melodic form known as Segah or Sika.

First the notes used in this framework differ across cutures.

In Turkish music, the notes seem to be (in C) Eqb, F, G, A, Bqb, C, Eb, Eqb with Bb in descent, and with Eb as the note below the Eqb tonic, D totally skipped.

In Persian music, also in C, the main melodies in the Dastgah use the notes Eqb, F, G, Aqb, Bqb, C, D, Eqb. The A natural is a koron note between G# and A, and D is used instead of Eb as the note below the Eqb tonic.

Arabic music has a mix of these two depending on the musician, using both D and Eb as the note below the Eqb tonic.


Is this correct to some extent?

I've read Sika is used a lot in Jewish music too but have never listened to it as I wouldn't know where to start. What notes does their Sika use?

Also there are differences in the exact interval of the Eqb note that vary by "cents" across the region that I'd like more info about. (etc. 'sharper' in Iran, 'flatter' in the Maghreb, etc.) That could be most easily figured by the fret placement of Segah note on tar vs buzuk vs tanbur maybe? That leaves the note placement on Oud up to discerning ears using canonical recordings... anyone?

Jody Stecher - 8-27-2019 at 07:05 PM

One of the differences I hear between these regional versions is the placement of the individual pitches which are given the same name on paper or the same spot on staff notation but are not the same pitches (assuming all is at C as you have helpfully postulated for the purposes of comprehensible discussion). For instance the pitch Segah/Sika (the single note, not the makam of that name) differs between these musical cultures. Ottoman/Turkish segah is so high (at least in Rast makam) it is almost in E natural territory or almost touching the very low "shuddh gandhar" in raga Behag in North Indian raag sangeet.

it gets even more compli-ma-cated when shifting between tetrachords. The nominally same pitch in one makam is higher or lower in another. And there are different pitch placements within one makam as well according to context.

Chris-Stephens - 8-27-2019 at 08:13 PM

Thanks Jody, I can definitely tell the Segah note is sharpest in Turkish music, especialy when played on their long neck tanbur. Is there any way to inventory this geographic pitch shift? I might just be the one to have to do it. Speaking of Rast, is it accurate to say the C, D, Eqb of Segah, Rast, and Bayati are the same pitches or is the 3rd slightly different depending on the context?

I'm curious about the other notes in Segah too, if this mode originated in Persia and the Turkish and Arabic versions are taken from that, how did D get skipped and replaced with pure Eb, and the Aqb become replaced with pure A natural? I've read that Segah and Afshari share the same notes too but I don't hear them the same since Afshari doesn't use Bqb and Segah doesn't use A natural in Persian music.

Jody Stecher - 8-27-2019 at 09:47 PM

I'm not expert enough to answer your questions completely. I'll offer a few fragments though.

I think the best way to find the answers is through exposure and experience. Sometimes the musical theory of each music is after the fact and is trying to fit something complex and unruly into an orderly system. A lot of the music fits the theory but some does not.

In Arabic music I can hear that the pitch Segah/Sika does vary between Rast and Bayati.... except for when it doesn't. For instance a modulation to Bayati from Rast is not unusual. An ascending phrase or a descending phrase, a phrase that connects one maqam to the next, a phase that passes through the pitch sika, a phase that lingers on that pitch... it seems these are all factors that determine the exact pitch which is sung or played.

Brian Prunka - 8-28-2019 at 06:02 PM

Sikah "maqam" doesn't occur often in Arabic music, in fact I can't think of any examples in the common repertoire.

The sikah family maqamat that do occur are Huzam (80-90% of sikah repertoire is huzam or a transposition thereof), Iraq, or Bestanikar.

The leading tone can be a low D# (not exactly Eb) or a regular D depending on the context.

I'm sure there are examples, but a maqam-level example of Sikah is very uncommon.

Brian Prunka - 8-28-2019 at 06:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
For instance a modulation to Bayati from Rast is not unusual.


That's not my experience in Arabic music, unless you are talking about a modulation on the ghammaz (like rast G from bayati D). From Bayati D to Rast D is decidedly unusual at the maqam level, likewise from Bayati D to Rast C (though not unheard of).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding—can you share an example of what you are talking about?

Jody Stecher - 8-28-2019 at 08:28 PM

I'm thinking of taqsim-s. Rast on C moving to a phrase in Bayati on D. I can't think of a particular example but I seem to remember hearing this more than once.

Jody Stecher - 8-28-2019 at 08:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
For instance a modulation to Bayati from Rast is not unusual.


That's not my experience in Arabic music, unless you are talking about a modulation on the ghammaz (like rast G from bayati D).


And that reminds me of a mystery. When I first tried playing Arabic maqam music I found it not so hard to produce reasonably accurate fingering in Rast on C. But when I tried Rast from gg or any other open string I found it much harder to get it to sound right. It wasn't just intonation, though that was a factor. I wish I knew what the problem was.

Chris-Stephens - 8-29-2019 at 04:30 PM

"Sikah "maqam" doesn't occur often in Arabic music, in fact I can't think of any examples in the common repertoire. "

Quite a surprising statement, Brian!

I'd say these examples that come up from searching 'maqam sekah/segah/sika/seka' on youtube turned up would be enough to point to how this maqam is indeed very important and established in the core of traditional Arab music. What do you mean my this common repertoire?

A whole 30 minute program, in Arabic, discussing the nuances of Maqam Sekah:

https://youtu.be/UW8xYpth3dk

Oum Kalthoum song in Maqam Sekah:

https://youtu.be/E3Y2SUwEGho

Quran recitation on Maqam Sekah:

https://youtu.be/efDgmqWRDLI?list=PLx7zf5zrFkia3UyKvIWw0zhGIqAP3Kcg6

the list goes on, although it is much more popular in Jewish, Turkish, and Persian music it is still one of the main maqam in Arabic music isnt it? I understand that it would be borrowed from the Persians, so found more in Iraq and Syria and not so much the farther west you go, but still i've always known segah as one of the standard Arabic maqamat.

Brian Prunka - 8-29-2019 at 06:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  
"Sikah "maqam" doesn't occur often in Arabic music, in fact I can't think of any examples in the common repertoire. "

Quite a surprising statement, Brian!

I'd say these examples that come up from searching 'maqam sekah/segah/sika/seka' on youtube turned up would be enough to point to how this maqam is indeed very important and established in the core of traditional Arab music. What do you mean my this common repertoire?

A whole 30 minute program, in Arabic, discussing the nuances of Maqam Sekah:

https://youtu.be/UW8xYpth3dk

Oum Kalthoum song in Maqam Sekah:

https://youtu.be/E3Y2SUwEGho

Quran recitation on Maqam Sekah:

https://youtu.be/efDgmqWRDLI?list=PLx7zf5zrFkia3UyKvIWw0zhGIqAP3Kcg6

the list goes on, although it is much more popular in Jewish, Turkish, and Persian music it is still one of the main maqam in Arabic music isnt it? I understand that it would be borrowed from the Persians, so found more in Iraq and Syria and not so much the farther west you go, but still i've always known segah as one of the standard Arabic maqamat.


Maybe my meaning wasn't clear. What I'm saying is that the primary and most common sikah family maqam is huzam. It's very common. Pieces in "sikah maqam", not Huzam or Iraq, are very rare compared to other maqamat. Rast, Bayati, Huzam, Hijaz, Nahawand, and Saba are the common maqamat. Suznak and Rast are very closely related and both are very common even if you consider them separately.

Whether someone could play a taqasim in sikah, or whether a piece modulates to sikah for some section wasn't what I was talking about—the latter certainly happens, though considering "sikah maqam" rather than simply a jins modulation is debatable in many cases.

Even if you can turn up a few examples, that doesn't exactly disprove my statement—I could easily turn up dozens upon dozens of examples in Huzam.

Let's look at your examples:

1- this is a discussion primarily of taqasim, and Charbel does play the Sikah scale in the beginning. However, when they get into actual music, it seems like they are primarily demonstrating huzam, as it is by far the most common sikah family maqam. I admit I didn't listen closely to the whole clip as it's quite long and the examples I did hear mostly didn't seem to be the sikah maqam being discussed here. Regardless, lots of things may be heard in taqasim that may be much rarer in actual repertoire—one of the reasons I specified common repertoire.

2- this composition is actually in bayati. When I said that I couldn't think of common pieces in sikah, I meant as the primary maqam. There are many maqamat that occur as modulations, sometimes frequently, but that lack dedicated repertoire. However, in this case, what we find is actually sikah baladi, not sikah. The sikah is on the 4th of bayati, i.e. it would start on a 'natural' note. This is a different jins/maqam, and not the "sikah maqam."

Here is the whole piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8uhjon-Bm0

3. Quranic recitation, while broadly part of the maqam tradition, isn't considered part of the "common repertoire"—it's a distinct tradition. I don't know a ton about recitation; from what I understand, while the repertoire is closely related, certain things may be common in the quranic repertoire but not the secular repertoire. Regardless: his first phrase is in jins sikah (with a b4 ornament, implying huzam, but he doesn't actually leave the sikah jins). His second phrase in is saba on 3, so if anything we are in bestanikar, not sikah maqam proper.

Find me a wasla in maqam sikah, and at least one composition each for Oum Kulthoum, Abdel Halim, Abdel Wahab, Riad al Sounbati, if you want to demonstrate that it is a common maqam.

Of course I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all—it certainly exists at least as a maqam that gets modulated to, and I'm sure there is some repertoire where it is the primary maqam. It's just not a common maqam. Huzam is the "core" version of sikah in Arabic music—there are countless songs in Huzam.

So actually none of your examples are even a demonstration of sikah maqam as you described it.

The Muwashshah Jadaka Ghaythu arguably is partly in maqam sikah, though it begins and ends in maqam huzam. Likewise, the song il Wardi Gamil has a section that could be considered maqam sikah but the primary maqam is also huzam.

I'd be fascinated to find some examples though! I'm just sharing my experience—I've played lots of repertoire with Arabic musicians and actual music in "Maqam Sikah" is something that doesn't seem to ever come up. I'd be surprised if there aren't some examples, but I'm just saying it's not at all common.

Brian Prunka - 8-29-2019 at 08:03 PM

This adhan is in Iraq, with a modulation to Rast on 6 around 3:40 (thereby completing a Maqam Sikah scale), but it resolves back to Iraq:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oibq5ctgLQc

Using Rast on 6 is pretty common in all variants of Sikah, as a modulation to get you to the octave sikah note. While I wouldn't really consider this a true modulation to "Maqam Sikah" it certainly can be described using that scale.

Chris-Stephens - 8-30-2019 at 06:36 AM

Well things are getting over my head now, I'm not sure what "huzam is the core version of Sika" means, and what "Iraq" and "Bastenekar" are in the "family" of Sika. I recognize basteh negar from the Radif which is a gushe of Dastgah Segah in Persian Music though. I just go by the title mostly, which is not the best way to go I know. Anyway, we can agree it's not the most common maqam in the Arab world, especially outside Iraq and Syria. But here's a Sunbati taqsim supposedly in Maqam Sikah https://youtu.be/bSVXcXJ9Kug and a nice Iraqi ensemble composition with Farida singing in maqam Sega https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaSMDakimg

Searching online using different spellings will yield different results, likely because Arabic doesn't have the "G" sound in the Persian word "SeGah". Searching for Maqam Sekah gives Quran recitations, Maqam Sika mostly Turkish music, Maqam Segah gives Persian Music, and Maqam Seka, Sikah, Sega, Siga, Sigah, Sekah, all give different results. Transliteration is funny like that I suppose. The character گ is sometimes used to make a "g" sound in Iraqi and Syrian Arabic I guess? Anyway, yes it's not so popular in Arabic compositions you're right. Here's Rahim al Haj playing a taqasim in Sika https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne4GynfbNCU and a nice Egyptian Ney taqsim in Sikah https://youtu.be/oKNo3Ls4s1A still though there aren't any Arabic 'golden oldies' I could easily find in this Maqam, its mostly associated with quran recitation, jewish, turkish, and persian music.

But my original question is about the use of A natural versus Aqb, D natural versus Eb as the leading tone, and the actual interval of the Eqb microtone as they varies across geographies.

Brian Prunka - 8-30-2019 at 08:27 AM

I think the confusion is that you are looking at titles rather than actually listening to the examples.

The Sunbati taqsim is in maqam huzam. People often list the maqam as sikah when it is huzam, precisely because the "true" sikah maqam is so uncommon that the main maqam think of when they think of jins sikah is huzam. Sunbati plays some ornamental phrases that hint at "true" sikah in the beginning, but it would be more accurate to regard this as huzam with some sikah flavoring (similar to how most rast compositions have some suznak flavoring).

A maqam family is defined by the tonic jins. The sikah family is all the maqamat that have sikah as the tonic jins: sikah (sikah + rast/nahawand), huzam (sikah + hijaz), Iraq (sikah + bayati), bestanikar (sikah + saba).
Of these the primary one in the repertoire is huzam. Rahat al-arwah is a transposed version of huzam starting on B1/2b.

The Rahim alHaj taqsim follows some different pathways (perhaps out of the Iraqi tradition, which is different), but also emphasizes huzam—the introductory phrasing and qaflah are very clear huzam.

The answer to your question is in listening to the examples of the music you are curious about.
Sikah maqam exists in theory in Arabic music, with A natural, both D and D# as leading tone, and B1/2b and Bb used in the second tetrachord. But my point was just that as a full maqam this is not often featured in Arabic music, at least if you are talking about the widely played common secular repertoire (Egyptian classics, qudud, muwashshahat, Lebanese classics, etc).

I wasn't intending to make any implication about religious music (Jewish, Christian or Islamic), Iraqi music, Persian or Turkish music. It wouldn't surprise me to find it in various other styles. I know from playing Coptic religious music it occurs there (though huzam and Iraq seem a bit more prevalent).

Brian Prunka - 8-30-2019 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  
Is there any way to inventory this geographic pitch shift? I might just be the one to have to do it. Speaking of Rast, is it accurate to say the C, D, Eqb of Segah, Rast, and Bayati are the same pitches or is the 3rd slightly different depending on the context?


So this is something that has been discussed quite a bit in various sources. It's important to note that it's not just a geographic question, as intonation has shifted over time as well. You can listen to early and late Oum Kulthoum to easily hear the lowering of the sikah pitch in Egyptian music. So trying to make a "map" is complicated by the question of when exactly you are talking about. I'm not familiar enough with Persian or Iraqi music to really comment, but Syrian music is generally a bit higher than the corresponding tuning in Egyptian or Lebanese music.

Regarding the tuning of the sikah note depending on maqam: this is often discussed, and there doesn't seem to be a universally accepted answer. You can find recordings with different tunings of this note but unless you are comparing the same performer from the same time period, it is like apples and oranges.

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  

I'm curious about the other notes in Segah too, if this mode originated in Persia and the Turkish and Arabic versions are taken from that, how did D get skipped and replaced with pure Eb, and the Aqb become replaced with pure A natural? I've read that Segah and Afshari share the same notes too but I don't hear them the same since Afshari doesn't use Bqb and Segah doesn't use A natural in Persian music.


In Arabic music both D and D# are used. It depends on a bunch of things, mostly just the tradition of the particular repertoire. There isn't a "rule" per se, although the D# is generally only found in phrases that either resolve to E1/2b or as a lower neighbor to E1/2b in a scale passage. D is found everywhere D# is found, as well as in phrases that resolve to notes besides E1/2b.
There is a corresponding Rast family maqam (Sazkar) that has the D#, more common in old repertoire.

A couple of notes:

Common practice with scales is to not have two notes with the same letter name unless unavoidable (scales greater than 7 notes per octave). So, in this case we would call the note between D and E1/2b D#, not Eb.

This note, by the way, is also tuned a bit lower than the usual Eb, so calling it D# makes more sense in that way as well (outside of equal temperament, lower letters are almost always lower pitches). Some argue that it's actually D half-sharp, but it's not really material—it's a note that must be learned by ear and whether you consider it to be a high D half-sharp or a low D# is just terminology.

The note in between D and Db would be more properly be termed "half flat", not "quarter flat."

C to D is a whole step
C to Db is a half step

"Flat" is already a half step. A quarter step is half of a half step. So a quarter step is half of "flat" (this is all aside, of course, from the fact that "quarter" is just a rough approximation as a shorthand).

Of course, people will mostly know what you mean when you say "quarter flat", and some people will say it this way, but it's not really accurate.

Chris-Stephens - 9-3-2019 at 06:35 AM

Thanks for all that Brian! So, let me make sure I understand. You are saying that nearly every example of Arabic music that is labeled as Maqam Sekah is named incorrectly, and are actually Huzam, Iraq, or Baste Nekar. All these recordings of Sekah (excluding Azeri, Turkish, Jewish, Persian, etc.) are named wrongly because the people who are in charge of the names wrongly assume that any maqam with the Sekah note as the tonic is Maqam Sikah. That just makes me wonder who is in charge of naming these recordings incorrectly because there are hundreds of examples (i just provided what is free on youtube) and why the artist wouldn't name their own music correctly.

Brian Prunka - 9-3-2019 at 03:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  
Thanks for all that Brian! So, let me make sure I understand. You are saying that nearly every example of Arabic music that is labeled as Maqam Sekah is named incorrectly, and are actually Huzam, Iraq, or Baste Nekar.


You're welcome! Yes, this more or less.
However, I don't really think of the music as being labeled "incorrectly." Huzam is a member of the Sikah family, and so calling it simply "Sikah" is imprecise but not inaccurate. When someone refers to a Huzam piece as "Sikah" they are simply indicating the root jins and family.

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  

All these recordings of Sekah (excluding Azeri, Turkish, Jewish, Persian, etc.) are named wrongly because the people who are in charge of the names wrongly assume that any maqam with the Sekah note as the tonic is Maqam Sikah.


Well, I would say it the other way around — it's you who is wrongly assuming that referring to Sikah in the name means that it is "Maqam Sikah." At some point, when language is commonly used in a way contrary to one's expectations, we might conclude that the meaning is simply the usage.
Sure, a hundred years ago, one likely might have expected a more narrow usage. But as "maqam sikah" fell out of favor in Arabic music, "sikah" became more commonly used in reference to the family of interrelated maqamat.


Your question sent me on a quest to find an actual song in maqam sikah.

Interestingly, there are three Muwashshahat in Min Kounouzia in actual maqam sikah. The composers are Ali Darwish, Omar al Batsh, and Safar Ali.

The first two I couldn't find any recordings of, but the third one is recorded here. This is muwashshah Mohy Gharam al Mushtaq (محيي غرام المشتاق ) in maqam Sikah, by Safar Ali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx0RHYn-3H0

The other two are (transliterations approximate, suggestions welcomed)
يا ساكناً بفؤادي علي درويش
ya saknaan bi fouadi - Ali Darwish


يا معير الغصن ال رحوم عمرالبطث
Ya Maer al ghosn -Omar el Batsh

Which are nowhere to be heard, perhaps further evidence of maqam sikah's unpopularity!
There is another muwashshah on the same poetry as the Ali Darwish one, but it is in maqam bayati.

In what is perhaps a bit of humorous irony, Simon Shaheen's composition "Iraq" might be best characterized as being primarily in maqam sikah.

Chris-Stephens - 9-5-2019 at 06:12 PM

Thanks for all your amazing insights and clarifications Brian! I used some of the info you provided to piece together the holes in my understanding before I presented my latest radio show dedicated to Segah. Give it a listen if you'd like! I played lots of Oud, Ney, Kemanche, Turkish Tanbur, Tar, Setar, and Santoor, from Turkey to Yemen, to Iran, all in Segah! https://www.radiofreeamerica.com/show/open-strings-open-access-liste...

bugaga - 9-23-2019 at 11:40 AM

Thanks for putting these examples. It's the first time I've heard a piece of an Arabic composer in actual Segah (as main maqam). What's "Min Kounouzia"?

al-Halabi - 9-23-2019 at 12:39 PM

"Min Kounouzina" (meaning "from our treasures") is the title of a large collection of notated muwashshah songs that was published in Aleppo in 1955.

John Erlich - 9-26-2019 at 12:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  

I've read Sika is used a lot in Jewish music too but have never listened to it as I wouldn't know where to start. What notes does their Sika use?

You can read a bit about that on Pizmonim.org - http://www.pizmonim.org/maqam.php?maqam=Sigah This site is about religious music from the Brooklyn, NY Aleppan Jewish ("SY") community. I was actually surprised at the listed number of pieces in Sigah/Sika.