Need advice on specific fast techniques

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

This is a little confusing. If you have a high f', the notes in the passage are Bb A G A Bb (on the G string) C D (on the C string) F G (on the F string) E F D E C D (on the C string) Bb C A (on the G string). You never get out of the first position. If you don't have the high f' then you have to go up and down the c' string up to the neck-body joint, which is a little tougher to get clean. Or are you transposing the whole passage up? Even without the high f' you only need two positions: 1st finger on D and first finger on E. You can pick all the 8th notes down and the 16th notes down-up. You do need to finger some upper neighbors with the 4th finger instead of the open string to get it clean like the recording. If you could post a video you you playing it, it would be easier to make a helpful suggestion.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Also the pattern continues - your last two notes should continue the pattern of upper neighbor tones. In the original key it's Bb C A, with the C played with the 4th finger (2 4 1) instead of just (2 1) as you are doing.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

you seem to be doing it fine and just need to work a bit on getting it cleaner.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Listening more closely, I agree with you. That makes it easier. For some reason the first excerpt above sounded a bit muddy on my computer but on the youtube clip is a bit clearer. Continuing in the way I described would be very common so still good to practice, but I think you're right that he's not doing it here. Your fingering is probably how I would do it. Some people might play the F-G (in the original key) with the first and third fingers, but then you need to shift down to E, then to D. So two shifts instead of one. Depending on how strong your 4th finger is and how good you are at shifting, that could end up cleaner. Might be worth practicing both ways but the way you did it in your video is how I would be inclined to play it. You didn't show your right hand, so not sure if there are inefficiencies there, but your picking sounds good overall.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this. A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this. A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.

Quote: Originally posted by maraoud108

These types of faster passages need to be looked at in terms of weeks or months to actually get them together. Practice the passage very slowly, and gradually build up every day by one or two metronome markings. Every movement will become clear in this way. Then go BEYOND the speed that you wish to play it at, by about 10BPM. Also, try doing variations on this passage. Try playing it backwards. Different things like that.

Quote: Originally posted by maraoud108

These types of faster passages need to be looked at in terms of weeks or months to actually get them together. Practice the passage very slowly, and gradually build up every day by one or two metronome markings. Every movement will become clear in this way. Then go BEYOND the speed that you wish to play it at, by about 10BPM. Also, try doing variations on this passage. Try playing it backwards. Different things like that.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this. A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.

Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy

Apologies for bumping this thread but I have a question regarding a certain technique that I noticed. When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of how I hit the string below it. However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke. To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string. This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?

Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy

When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of how I hit the string below it. However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke. To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string. This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy   Apologies for bumping this thread but I have a question regarding a certain technique that I noticed. When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of how I hit the string below it. However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke. To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string. This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often? Yes, I think it's a valuable technique. It's maybe a bit more "modern" of a technique, in that in old-school playing it seems like players almost always started a new string on a downstroke in faster passages. It's a more advanced technique, so for less advanced players I think it's much more important to focus on developing the more traditional way first. But if you are able to play this reasonably cleanly then it's probably worth your time developing this skill. There are several ways one can cross a string. I wrote a pretty detailed analysis here,. A note about pick angle, hand angle and string crossing: Making these kinds of crossings often depend not on how you play the target note, but how you played the preceding note. These are the factors that you can adjust to experiment with getting it cleaner, all affect your pick angle and/or hand angle: Forearm supination/pronation Wrist flexion/extension Wrist deviation (adduction/abduction) Risha grip/position/angle In addition, risha depth in the strings is important to consider. If your risha is buried deep in the strings it will take more extra movement to clear the strings. Note that in normal playing position, upstrokes are free - clear of the strings, and downstrokes are trapped in the strings (requiring some extra motion to play anything but an upstroke on the same string or a downstroke on the next string). You can work on being better at getting out of the trapped position, and/or you can work on developing a free downstroke that ends up clear of the strings. Both are worthwhile, IMO.

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy   When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of how I hit the string below it. However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke. To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string. This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often? Can you ask the question again please, using all words indicating *above* to mean higher pitch and all words indicating *below* to mean lower pitch? You seem to be saying that when you leave a higher pitch string and go to a lower pitched string your final stroke on the higher pitch string is a downstroke. But what I think you mean that when you land on the lower pitch string you do so with a downstroke. Is that right? Also not quite making sense to me is the concept of changing the reesha angle in order to make a down stroke on the lower pitched string. Following a downstroke with an upstroke on a new string needn't involve much of a change from following a downstroke with an upstroke on the same string —with one exception: when making the final downstroke on the upper string (the one higher in pitch) I would not play a rest stroke. I'd play a free stroke. Otherwise, yeah, the reesha can get tangled. And considering how loosely I hold the reesha (not tight at all) I could actually lose my grip. The reesha could go flying or get tangled in the strings or even fall in one of the sound holes ! I sometimes follow an upstroke on a string with a dragging motion to an adjacent lower string. It sounds like 2 strokes but it's really one. To do that my wrist position is different from an ordinary upstroke. When descending in pitch between strings if the last stroke on a higher pitched string is on downstroke I sometimes play the first stroke on a lower pitch string with an up stroke especially when playing at high speed. For instance when playing a descending C major scale on an oud whose upper four courses are cc gg dd aa if I played the first 4 notes on the gg course I would play DUDU (c b a g). Now if I played the first note on the cc course I would play the same pattern of DUDU. At medium speed DDUP would give the music a more oldtime Arabic sound (which actually accords with a 19th century European plucked instrument sound... some Italian classical mandolinists did this for instance). But at high speed it seems ok to keep reversing direction. Now moving to the DD course that would be DU. Now we come to the final note. C on the AA course. It could be Up or Down. It does sound a bit different. I would characterize the effect of DUDUDUDU as "lighter". And maybe less "atmospheric".

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

From my perspective, you have to actually change the angle before the stroke and/or use wrist flexion/extension in the stroke in order to escape the strings. If you change the angle of your pick after the down stroke it is too late. I misunderstood what you were asking (I guess Jody was right that you needed to be clearer). When discussing music, "higher," "above," "below," and "down" should always refer to pitch. I don't think this technique is of too much importance, as I explain in the other thread. It is worthwhile if you really have all the other parts extremely solid, but the return on investment of time is pretty low. So it depends on how you want to spend your practice time. I can think of a lot of things that are likely to be more valuable. That said, it is something that I work on, but it is still not a high priority.