Mike's Oud Forums

Turkish Oud vs Arabic Oud intonation possibilities

majnuunNavid - 3-28-2021 at 04:00 AM

These days I've been studying Turkish music and working on reproducing the accurate Ottoman intonation while playing Ottoman compositions.

Those of you who play Arabic Ouds and are accustomed to playing the Ottoman repertoire that was borrowed into Arabic music in greater Syria when it was still part of the Ottoman Empire will recognize the differences in Turkish and Arabic performance of the same pieces.

A few key examples that come to mind:
Samai Farafaza by Cemil Bey
Samai Shahnaz by Kemenci Nikolaki
Bosphorus scenes under the moonlight by Cinucen Tarnikorur as performed by Simon Shaheen

While I am aware that some of the intonation differences are a matter of taste and style, while other intonation irregularities could be due to information being lost during transmission, I wonder how much is actually the result of the inherent abilities of the Oud being used.

I've been using amazing slow downer to change the pitch of the authoritative Turkish performance so I can play these pieces with a Zeryab Oud and Yildirim Palabiyik Oud in Arabic tuning.

I find that my Arabic Oud can't adequately reproduce Turkish intonation. It just doesn't sound right. When I bend the note the way Turkish players do, it doesn't have the same effect. But when I do it on my Yildirim Oud, I'm very happy with how it sounds.

Is this just my imagination?
Is it just the difference in the quality of the Ouds?

Or...

Are these subtleties really built into the soundboard? Are the braces placed to enhance certain frequencies or sounds?

Anyone have a similar experience?

Luthiers too, please illuminate me.

maraoud108 - 3-28-2021 at 04:17 AM

It's interesting because when I was searching for ouds to purchase and I heard your video of Yildirim's ouds, it immediately sounded "right" to my ears, as I've grown up listening to Turkish sounding ouds. I'm talking about the video you have where you play the three different ouds. The other ones were beautiful, but there was something missing in them for "that" sound.

I also hear it in this video by Negar Bouban, though I imagine she could play any oud and it would sound magical. Note that this oud is shaped very differently from the Yildirim ouds, but that it also has rosettes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Zn3_mriXM

Now if I listen to an oud by Yildirim that is a Bashir style, it sounds full and rich to me, but something about it doesn't sound "right" if I'm listening for that Turkish oud sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcei5IyhDY8

So my theory is that the rosettes in the sound holes and the shape of the sound holes (egg shaped versus circular) have some effect on the sound, creating certain frequencies and overtones in the upper in the upper registers when notes are played that make the intonation sound "right."

The other ouds are also "right" sounding, if that's the sound you're going for - so in no way am I knocking the sound of Yildirim's Bashir style. If that's the sound you're looking for then I imagine it's great, it's just that my ears aren't attuned to it.

maraoud108 - 3-28-2021 at 04:23 AM

This thread discusses the effect of rosettes on sound:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12412

maraoud108 - 3-28-2021 at 04:32 AM

I just found this fascinating paper from MIT by Hadi Tavakoli Nia. I don't understand the math, but it discusses how rosettes effect the sound and frequency.

https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/61924/707340180-MIT.p...

Here's the abstract:

Sound-hole, an essential component of stringed musical instruments, enhances the sound radiation in the lower octave by introducing a natural vibration mode called air resonance. Many musical instruments, including those from the violin, lute and oud families have evolved complex sound-hole geometries through centuries of trail and error. However, due to the inability of current theories to analyze complex sound-holes, the design knowledge in such sound-holes accumulated by time is still uncovered. Here we present the potential physical principles behind the historical development of complex sound-holes such as rosettes in lute, f-hole in violin and multiple sound-holes in oud families based on a newly developed unified approach to analyze general sound-holes. We showed that the majority of the air flow passes through the near-the-edge area of the opening, which has potentially led to the emergence of rosettes in lute family. Consequently, we showed that the variation in resonance frequency and bandwidth of different traditional rosettes with fixed outer diameter is less than a semitone, while the methods based on the total void area predicts variations of many semitones. Investigating the evolution of sound-holes in violin family from circular geometry in at least 10th century to the present-day f-hole geometry, we found that the evolution is consistent with a drive toward decreasing the void area and increasing the resonance bandwidth for a fixed resonance frequency. We anticipate this approach to be a starting point in discovering the concepts behind the geometrical design of the existing sound-hole geometries, and helping the musicians, instrument makers and scientists utilize this knowledge to design consistently better instruments.

majnuunNavid - 3-28-2021 at 04:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by maraoud108  

I also hear it in this video by Negar Bouban, though I imagine she could play any oud and it would sound magical. Note that this oud is shaped very differently from the Yildirim ouds, but that it also has rosettes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Zn3_mriXM


That Oud sounds delicious. I want to eat it like cake.

I think Mohammad Arafati's Ouds and Barbats are highly undervalued and underappreciated.

sylvainbd - 5-17-2021 at 04:38 AM

Hi Navid. I discover your interesting post today.

For me there is no doubt! After having tested a lot of Turkish and Arab ouds, the lutherie is always adapted to the repertoire.
As for the Arab luthiers, Turkish luthiers design lutes that reason particularly well with local music. In other words, these ouds reason well with the notes of the country's maqams. The soundboard is finely worked to create harmonics. This gives the instrument a very pleasant sound. The bracing (or bracing) and the rosettes are part of the parameters. The type of wood used for the soundboard, its fineness... Not to mention the strings which have the right tension for a calibrated vibrating length. Then the action that makes the strings curl more or less. The glues to assemble. The wood of the body ... So many parameters that in oud making an Arab oud is made for the Arab repertoire and a Turkish oud for the Turkish repertoire.
Perhaps we should talk to zeynel demirtas who is (or was?) the specialist for the soundboards of Faruk Turunz' ouds. A whole physical science of advanced ...

Even if it would go down all the notes, personally I would like to try an oud made for LA 432hz ! Because 440hz is recent and is not a frequency accepted by all ... There might be some good surprises in terms of feel... Has anyone ever had one made?

suz_i_dil - 5-19-2021 at 03:01 AM

Hello there

do you feel this oud sounds right ? As far as i worked my intonation on this rendition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADRAabA1CeY

I believe it is more a matter of dynamic rendition than intonation.
for sure i find the rendition more authentic on a turkish oud, but in the style of sound, not really of intonation. No reason you cannot work your intonation on any type of oud.
My view that it is a artefact on how it should sound, a feeling linkeed to what we hear from the available recordings

more over the oud as is think nowadays in Turkey is probably not the one being used for composition in past old centuries, no ? Though i don't have much input in really old turkish ouds. I mean previous Manol type.
But checking for exemple old surviving egyptian ouds, they were made in a very different way than they are made nowadays.
https://oudmigrations.com/2016/11/14/how-large-were-egyptian-ouds/

juju - 5-20-2021 at 11:27 AM

Hi Navid,
Your observations really make sense to me.
My personal experience leads me to think that the conception of your Ud and the way you tune it will affect the intonation of your playing.

For example, in many modern turkish taksim, the note Segah is often played as a perfect third of Rast... many modern turkish Uds has great harmonics and sustain, so it's pretty natural to play Segah as a perfect third.. it makes the whole instrument sounding great.

In the other hand, in early turkish recordings (1910's), the note Segah is often played lower... the intonation is slightly different... I don't know how the conception of the instruments played at that time had influenced the way intonation was perceived.

Best.

ZaphodB - 6-19-2021 at 04:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
Hello there

do you feel this oud sounds right ? As far as i worked my intonation on this rendition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADRAabA1CeY

I believe it is more a matter of dynamic rendition than intonation.
for sure i find the rendition more authentic on a turkish oud, but in the style of sound, not really of intonation. No reason you cannot work your intonation on any type of oud.
My view that it is a artefact on how it should sound, a feeling linkeed to what we hear from the available recordings

more over the oud as is think nowadays in Turkey is probably not the one being used for composition in past old centuries, no ? Though i don't have much input in really old turkish ouds. I mean previous Manol type.
But checking for exemple old surviving egyptian ouds, they were made in a very different way than they are made nowadays.
https://oudmigrations.com/2016/11/14/how-large-were-egyptian-ouds/



The semai was played beautifully! I love the warm bassy sound of your oud, and its longer-than-average sustain when compared to other Arabic ouds (and even many Turkish ones) really works to its advantage in this piece. As far as I can tell, you tuned your oud a half-step lower, so the bassiness and the projection that it has at that low a pitch are that much more impressive.

That being said, I have to say the rendition didn't strike me as very Turkish :) The ornamentation is one reason. In order to sound more Turkish, you would need to use much more of that çarpma. I think that the sound profile of your oud is perfectly suited for it to sound good. Though you did use the characteristic ta--tatatata (for lack of a better way of writing it down), it could have maybe worked better in different places, in terms of sounding Turkish.

The intonation is what definitely marks it down as an Arabic rendition, though. Saba and Hüzzam both need to have those "narrow" augmented seconds to sound characteristically Turkish. This means that your 4th note in the Saba modulation (Bb) needed to be a little higher, as did your 4th in Hüzzam (Ab*). The Segâh note in Turkish makam Hüzzam (D#) is also played as a natural third of Rast, not as a neutral tone.

But regardless of which style the piece was interpreted in, I really enjoyed it!

suz_i_dil - 6-24-2021 at 02:06 AM

That is because it is a french oud haha. The soundboard was made by a friend ;) on a turkish rather large bowl.
The bowl was worked to be lighter.

Thank you for your message and comments ! I will play it again exploring your comments, and moreover comparing to a very typed turkish sounding oud i have.
It is obvious i play very distinctly while using this oud or using a more turkish typed oud. I though in the style (the use of Carpma ) but can be also in my intonation. I dont know. I don't catch it clear, if it is just my ear memory ( i go in the style of what i know and ear on the right sounding oud on the righ tuning ) or if it the intisic intonation of the oud that make me play this way.
I tend to change my mind on this subject , because my turkish oud has strong dominants (if not wolf tone actually ! ) that my arabic style oud has not. But at the same time i tend to play in the style of the artist i hear when the sound get near from their sound. Hard to make the point between both but for sure different oud gives different inspiration. That's why i think there is no " perfect oud ", at least for my way of playing

Thanks again for your message and best wishes !