Mike's Oud Forums

Would you buy...

Guitarune - 8-30-2021 at 10:44 AM


.....a 58 cm scale oud with 20 cm neck?

The fifth being around 0,7 cm from the neck joint, that is.

Or is the fifth being on the neck joint a must?

I got my first oud from SalaMuzik with these measurements. It was sold as being 60 cm scale, so something must obviously have gone wrong, since the neck length indeed indicates a 60 cm scale.

I'm just curious if anyone would buy this at a later time?
Since it's such a hassle to return for a new one (postage, customs, taxes, applying for vat refund etc) I'm considering suggesting a partial refund. Especially if it's going to be hard to sell this thing at a later time...

coolsciguy - 8-30-2021 at 01:26 PM

Your bigger issue is the angle of the neck joint and the soundboard caving. This alone merits a return/partial refund.
I'm not sure if the length of the fingerboard is a deal breaker; with any new oud, you'll get used to where each tone falls without thinking of the length after a while.

suz_i_dil - 8-30-2021 at 01:27 PM

it would need to know if it has been built this way knowingly or if it has been amended after being built.
If the neck has been changed for some reason , or the bridge moved from its original stringlength, can really be a matter regarding how the bracing has been built.
Do you know ?

Modern standard is 1/3 of the total stringlength. The fifth at the neck body joint is a good landmark. Finding an old one with a neck shorter than it should nowadays, i learned the 1/3 standard has been adopted in Egypt in 1930 under the influence of Mohammed Al Qasabgy.

So..

it is a matter of how much you love the sound and your ability to settle your playing on different landmark. Can be , but not the most practical, moreover if you go from one instrument to another

Jason - 8-30-2021 at 02:03 PM

It would be a deal breaker for me unless it were a very very good antique instrument. The 1/3 string length standardization has been adopted for good reason and I can't think of why anyone would stray from it on purpose.

I know you've mentioned this oud has quite a few issues but the string length could be fixed/repaired by ungluing the bridge and moving it back. That kind of work can be completed without really being noticeable if the repair person is good. If you're happy with the oud otherwise maybe you can see if Sala will pay for the repair?

Brian Prunka - 8-30-2021 at 02:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
It would be a deal breaker for me unless it were a very very good antique instrument. The 1/3 string length standardization has been adopted for good reason and I can't think of why anyone would stray from it on purpose.

I know you've mentioned this oud has quite a few issues but the string length could be fixed/repaired by ungluing the bridge and moving it back. That kind of work can be completed without really being noticeable if the repair person is good. If you're happy with the oud otherwise maybe you can see if Sala will pay for the repair?


The bridge position needs to be coordinated with the bracing as well. Simply moving the bridge is not advisable since the brace positions are (presumably, though as suz_i_dil notes, we have no real idea) for the current position.

In addition, the position of the bridge relative to the end of the body, as well as the total volume of the body for the string length and tuning, are all interrelated and relevant.

Overall, I like Sala and think they're a pretty good company. But I wouldn't be inclined to accept this, and I think they should just offer you a replacement oud. It's pretty easy to demonstrate that the oud is defective even if you don't send it back. What are they going to do if you send it back? I guess they could attempt to repair it but that seems unlikely. Maybe salvage it for parts?

They should consider their reputation and the risks of people losing faith in their products — people are becoming more comfortable buying ouds they haven't played over the internet but if this isn't resolved well I certainly would be much more hesitant to recommend them.

Guitarune - 9-1-2021 at 03:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
It would be a deal breaker for me unless it were a very very good antique instrument. The 1/3 string length standardization has been adopted for good reason and I can't think of why anyone would stray from it on purpose.

I know you've mentioned this oud has quite a few issues but the string length could be fixed/repaired by ungluing the bridge and moving it back. That kind of work can be completed without really being noticeable if the repair person is good. If you're happy with the oud otherwise maybe you can see if Sala will pay for the repair?


The bridge position needs to be coordinated with the bracing as well. Simply moving the bridge is not advisable since the brace positions are (presumably, though as suz_i_dil notes, we have no real idea) for the current position.

In addition, the position of the bridge relative to the end of the body, as well as the total volume of the body for the string length and tuning, are all interrelated and relevant.

Overall, I like Sala and think they're a pretty good company. But I wouldn't be inclined to accept this, and I think they should just offer you a replacement oud. It's pretty easy to demonstrate that the oud is defective even if you don't send it back. What are they going to do if you send it back? I guess they could attempt to repair it but that seems unlikely. Maybe salvage it for parts?

They should consider their reputation and the risks of people losing faith in their products — people are becoming more comfortable buying ouds they haven't played over the internet but if this isn't resolved well I certainly would be much more hesitant to recommend them.


Yeah, I really don't know what happened here. If the bridge is just placed too far ahead, or if the top itself was made for a shorter scale oud. But I do hope that the bridge is in a safe spot!
I've returned two speakers and another instrument out of the country in the last month, and it's such a hassle with papers, customs and VAT. I'd like to avoid more of that! Assuming that it won't suffer from the bridge placement, that is. I wish it would have been 60 cm for stiffer string response, but I'l survive going for C# (or probably D for a more friendly key :)) tuning instead.
I'll see what Sala suggests.

suz_i_dil - 9-2-2021 at 04:27 AM

ah ok , it is a new one. I'm seeing the specifications you edited, or maybe i rode your message a bit quickl.
Weird indeed on a new instrument from this origin
Maybe a mis-assembled of a 60 cm oud neck with the body of a 57 cm ? That may explain the total 58 stringlength with 20 cm neck. i can imagine this may happen in a big workshop.
I agree with Brian , the owe you to find an agreement, this one is clearly defective
best of luck in resolving, let us know how it turns

Guitarune - 9-2-2021 at 07:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
ah ok , it is a new one. I'm seeing the specifications you edited, or maybe i rode your message a bit quickl.
Weird indeed on a new instrument from this origin
Maybe a mis-assembled of a 60 cm oud neck with the body of a 57 cm ? That may explain the total 58 stringlength with 20 cm neck. i can imagine this may happen in a big workshop.
I agree with Brian , the owe you to find an agreement, this one is clearly defective
best of luck in resolving, let us know how it turns


Yeah, I was thinking wrong body/neck combination...but can't quite make sense of that either, since I don't believe they make any tops looking like this at that size.

I am listening to your last uploaded youtube video. That does sound so much firmer and stronger than the one I got :bounce: ...What scale is it?

suz_i_dil - 9-2-2021 at 12:14 PM

oh, the old oud you mean
indeed lovely sound with a lot of presence.
I think it is a school of thinking the instrument which doesnt seem the most proeminent nowadays.
The soundboard is left rather free and flexible around the bridge , as you can imagine if you look at the steps of restoration and see the bracing. But not weak.
Then associate to a single soundhole and a large volume of a light bowl and a light bridge, as i think of its main features to produce this kind of sound
The scale is 61.5 and the neck 19.

Or do you mean the music scale ? A rast, but developping on hijaz on the fifth.

Guitarune - 9-2-2021 at 12:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
oh, the old oud you mean
indeed lovely sound with a lot of presence.
I think it is a school of thinking the instrument which doesnt seem the most proeminent nowadays.
The soundboard is left rather free and flexible around the bridge , as you can imagine if you look at the steps of restoration and see the bracing. But not weak.
Then associate to a single soundhole and a large volume of a light bowl and a light bridge, as i think of its main features to produce this kind of sound
The scale is 61.5 and the neck 19.

Or do you mean the music scale ? A rast, but developping on hijaz on the fifth.


No, didn't mean the musical scale :) I just heard you were tuned to C as I am, but the response sounds so much more firm and piano-like. You confirm my suspicions, the scale being 3.5 cm longer than what I got!

Jody Stecher - 9-2-2021 at 01:10 PM

A firm strong sound can be gotten on a Arabic oud with 58.5 scale. I have such an oud and have played many others. There are so many factors involved in the sound. In my opinion the principal factor is the touch of the player. Are you sure you are using the right hand technique that will produce the optimal sound? Your oud does seem to be a mismatch of parts but it might actually sound good.

Guitarune - 9-2-2021 at 01:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
A firm strong sound can be gotten on a Arabic oud with 58.5 scale. I have such an oud and have played many others. There are so many factors involved in the sound. In my opinion the principal factor is the touch of the player. Are you sure you are using the right hand technique that will produce the optimal sound? Your oud does seem to be a mismatch of parts but it might actually sound good.


Yes, but all things being equal, the string response will necessarily get firmer at the same pitch with longer scale length. I tend to prefer hard tension on my stringed instruments. Which also makes it possible to have slightly lower action.
I've tuned this one up half a step and it's already more to my liking :) I may end up getting strings that are suitable for tuning in D. I'll just have to sacrifice that low thing...

I still haven't dived into oud strings and what difference in tension might be had there, though!

suz_i_dil - 9-3-2021 at 12:26 AM

Hello
i agree with Jody, i think you can get firm sound on shorter stringlength instruments. Check Albert Mansour works as an exemple, seems 57 stringlength is his standard

I'm not clear on this issue of long stringlength on sound
But my global opinion it isn't much regarding all others issues like bowl volume and concept of the soundboard, strings gauges, technic of the right hand, risha being used..etc
Maybe the idea of the long stringlength gives firmer sounds is linked to the fact those ouds usually made with larger bowls.
I have noticed this kind of sound on larger sized instruments, but i avoid those instruments because every time they were 20 cm depth bowl oud, and i don't feel confortable with.
But actually you can get larger volume by increasing the length of the bowl or building asymetric shaped bowl, and this kind of ouds i like them very much. They keep confortable but they have a lot of presence in the sound.
I think Sebastian Stenzel is proposing a very innovative solution to those issues , though i never tried till now, or i appreciate Albert Mansour shaped , with a curve given to the bowl to bring it shorter at the soundboard

Guitarune - 9-3-2021 at 02:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
Hello
i agree with Jody, i think you can get firm sound on shorter stringlength instruments. Check Albert Mansour works as an exemple, seems 57 stringlength is his standard

I'm not clear on this issue of long stringlength on sound
But my global opinion it isn't much regarding all others issues like bowl volume and concept of the soundboard, strings gauges, technic of the right hand, risha being used..etc
Maybe the idea of the long stringlength gives firmer sounds is linked to the fact those ouds usually made with larger bowls.
I have noticed this kind of sound on larger sized instruments, but i avoid those instruments because every time they were 20 cm depth bowl oud, and i don't feel confortable with.
But actually you can get larger volume by increasing the length of the bowl or building asymetric shaped bowl, and this kind of ouds i like them very much. They keep confortable but they have a lot of presence in the sound.
I think Sebastian Stenzel is proposing a very innovative solution to those issues , though i never tried till now, or i appreciate Albert Mansour shaped , with a curve given to the bowl to bring it shorter at the soundboard



Maybe "firm" isn't the right word. I don't mean full or strong etc. And surely short scale can sound just as fine (but different). I mean string response, overtones (especially in low register). It's the same principle with guitars, basses and piano etc. A 25.5" guitar will feel and sound quite different than a 24.75" at the same pitch.

suz_i_dil - 9-3-2021 at 12:06 PM

ah ok, i don(t know about this.INteresting Hope once i can make the try between 2 of the same maker and only different from stringlength

Guitarune - 9-4-2021 at 04:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
ah ok, i don(t know about this.INteresting Hope once i can make the try between 2 of the same maker and only different from stringlength


Yeah, the difference in string response is really quite big.

I haven't seen the typical "Hard Tension", "Normal Tension" etc on oud string sets, but I'm sure I can probably find a set with higher tension than what I got. That may hopefully help some!