Mike's Oud Forums

Wrist feels sore after playing

ArmoOudist - 9-15-2021 at 04:41 PM

After practicing for a long time (about an hour), especially faster songs, my wrist gets sore. Is this normal, or a sign of bad technique?

naf - 9-15-2021 at 05:26 PM

I was like you, each time I practiced for long time my right hand would feel exhausted and sore. I can't comment on your technique, but it could be simply sign of mere exhaustion and muscle fatigue.

ChanningPDX - 9-15-2021 at 07:21 PM

I don't have a lot of experience with these issues specifically as they apply to oud playing. In my other musical life as a player of Irish traditional music, this is something that comes up A LOT regardless of the instrument. Over the past couple of decades, I've lost count of the talented musicians I've met whose careers have been put on hold or even destroyed altogether because of repetitive strain injuries. This can happen to any musician who makes music with her or his hands and fingers. No one is immune.

In his book "Musicophilia", the late, great neurologist (and impassioned amateur musician) Dr. Oliver Sacks made the point that musicians are "athletes of the small muscles." (Yeah, yeah, OK, that's enough. Stop laughing.)

Think of it this way: if you were training for a marathon, you wouldn't hop off your sofa, leap out your door, and then run 42 km only to come home, flop back on the couch and turn on the TV. That would probably seriously mess you up. And yet, as musicians, many of us (myself included) are guilty of this behavior.

The best musicians I know may play for anywhere from two to eight hours every day, but all of them take frequent breaks. Taking a 10-15 min. break for every hour of practice should be the bare minimum. You should also do stretches both before and after you play. There are a few videos of stretching specifically for oud players that you could check out on Youtube. (I think Baha Yetkin did a good one at one point.) There are also plenty of gadgets to help prevent repetitive strain injuries. I personally use something called a "TheraBand." They're pretty easy to find online and not very expensive.

Whatever you do, if you do start to feel pain in your wrists, don't just "play through the pain." That might work for days, weeks, or even years, but eventually, you'll end up doing permanent damage to yourself. When you start to feel pain, that's your body's way of telling you to stop, take a break, stretch, and relax.

Brian Prunka - 9-15-2021 at 09:13 PM

+1 to everything Channing said.

There are different kinds of pain. Fatigue is quite distinct from strain and inflammation if you pay attention. Fatigue is not a problem and totally normal, take breaks and you'll be fine.

Poor ergonomics and improper techique cause injury. I only found one video you posted a little while back and it looks like you would really benefit from working with a teacher to address various aspects of picking technique. Video tutorials can be helpful while learning, but there is no substitute for specific feedback from someone who is observing you directly.

While an hour is not really a long practice session, it is a long time to do just one thing, and it's long enough to injure yourself if you have inefficient habits.

Possibly tangential to your specific experience here, but one piece of advice I can offer from hard-won experience: most mistakes while playing are due to weaknesses in one's musical imagination, and not due to physical limitations. Most repetitive injuries in my experience are at least partly due to the mistaken belief that you can compensate for aural shortcomings by drilling physical movements.

My catchphrase to remind myself and students of this is: you can't fix your ears with your hands.

Spending time on improving aural skills, focus, imagination/audiation, and memory doesn't stress your body. It deepens one's connection between their creative imagination and instrument, and makes playing more meaningful and enjoyable. If you spend time on aural skills throughout your practice sessions, you will naturally give yourself physical breaks and improve much faster in the long run.

ArmoOudist - 9-16-2021 at 01:57 AM

Thanks for the advice.

John Erlich - 9-21-2021 at 09:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
After practicing for a long time (about an hour), especially faster songs, my wrist gets sore. Is this normal, or a sign of bad technique?


I would be happy to watch a video of your playing, and see if I have any suggestions. One common problem, especially for former guitar players (like myself) is to hold the risha/mizrap too tightly. I hold my risha with about 1/3 of the pressure I use/used to hold a guitar pick. The risha is long, to allow you to hold it with you whole hand, rather than like a guitar pick, with just thumb and forefinger. I also transitioned to using a harder, springier risha (made from pallet strapping), which benefitted me and my ergonomics by forcing me to use a gentler picking technique. You can also try experimenting with rishas of different consistencies and thicknesses. I have rishas that are softer (and thicker) for when I need that kind of "softer" sound, but I always get a sore wrist from using them.

If faster songs/faster playing seems to be an issue, I suggest playing exercises, patterns using basic maqamat. Start slowly. Then speed up gradually, focusing on NOT holding the risha tighter as you begin to play faster. You can also try taking short breaks and doing stretching exercises for your hand/wrist/arm.

ArmoOudist - 9-22-2021 at 11:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
After practicing for a long time (about an hour), especially faster songs, my wrist gets sore. Is this normal, or a sign of bad technique?


I would be happy to watch a video of your playing, and see if I have any suggestions. One common problem, especially for former guitar players (like myself) is to hold the risha/mizrap too tightly. I hold my risha with about 1/3 of the pressure I use/used to hold a guitar pick. The risha is long, to allow you to hold it with you whole hand, rather than like a guitar pick, with just thumb and forefinger. I also transitioned to using a harder, springier risha (made from pallet strapping), which benefitted me and my ergonomics by forcing me to use a gentler picking technique. You can also try experimenting with rishas of different consistencies and thicknesses. I have rishas that are softer (and thicker) for when I need that kind of "softer" sound, but I always get a sore wrist from using them.

If faster songs/faster playing seems to be an issue, I suggest playing exercises, patterns using basic maqamat. Start slowly. Then speed up gradually, focusing on NOT holding the risha tighter as you begin to play faster. You can also try taking short breaks and doing stretching exercises for your hand/wrist/arm.


In the "Member Clips" section. I have a video I recently posted of me playing the Armenian "Laz Bar". I posted it so people could critique me on picking. We all agreed that my wrist angle was too extreme, causing stiffness and discomfort. If you want to look, you may. As an update, I realized my problem may have stemmed from not being able to reach the oud properly. I adjusted the height of my foot stand. There's still a bend to my wrist, and I can slip into old habits when I'm not paying attention, but I think it's helping a bit. Both John Berberian and Chick Ganimian have/had a bend to their wrist, the difference is they keep their thumbs parallel to the strings, which makes the motion less stiff and more flowing. The bend in itself isn't a problem, it's just the extremity of it.
Thanks!

John Erlich - 9-25-2021 at 10:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
After practicing for a long time (about an hour), especially faster songs, my wrist gets sore. Is this normal, or a sign of bad technique?


I would be happy to watch a video of your playing, and see if I have any suggestions. One common problem, especially for former guitar players (like myself) is to hold the risha/mizrap too tightly. I hold my risha with about 1/3 of the pressure I use/used to hold a guitar pick. The risha is long, to allow you to hold it with you whole hand, rather than like a guitar pick, with just thumb and forefinger. I also transitioned to using a harder, springier risha (made from pallet strapping), which benefitted me and my ergonomics by forcing me to use a gentler picking technique. You can also try experimenting with rishas of different consistencies and thicknesses. I have rishas that are softer (and thicker) for when I need that kind of "softer" sound, but I always get a sore wrist from using them.

If faster songs/faster playing seems to be an issue, I suggest playing exercises, patterns using basic maqamat. Start slowly. Then speed up gradually, focusing on NOT holding the risha tighter as you begin to play faster. You can also try taking short breaks and doing stretching exercises for your hand/wrist/arm.


In the "Member Clips" section. I have a video I recently posted of me playing the Armenian "Laz Bar". I posted it so people could critique me on picking. We all agreed that my wrist angle was too extreme, causing stiffness and discomfort. If you want to look, you may. As an update, I realized my problem may have stemmed from not being able to reach the oud properly. I adjusted the height of my foot stand. There's still a bend to my wrist, and I can slip into old habits when I'm not paying attention, but I think it's helping a bit. Both John Berberian and Chick Ganimian have/had a bend to their wrist, the difference is they keep their thumbs parallel to the strings, which makes the motion less stiff and more flowing. The bend in itself isn't a problem, it's just the extremity of it.
Thanks!


I like to use Palestinian oud player (and "pen pal") Samer Totah as an example of extremely "orthodox" picking arm/hand technique. My technique is not this orthodox, but it's a good foil against which to measure one's right arm/hand positioning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK5FJZOi9u4

ArmoOudist - 9-26-2021 at 10:26 AM

Thanks for the advice!

ArmoOudist - 10-3-2021 at 05:48 AM

As a follow up on this, I met up with John Berberian yesterday and asked him to look at my right hand technique. He said everything looked perfectly fine and that it was normal for my wrist to be bent (He himself bends his wrist while playing). To be fair, I may have subtly lessened the bend of my wrist since this thread, so he wasn't seeing anything too extreme.
Honestly, the big problem with me may just be some general tension in the way I play, and not anything wrong with my actual technique. I could be holding the mizrab a little too tightly, for example.
For some context, here's a video of him playing.
I wonder if some of this is just regional differences in technique. It seems to me that Turks/Armenians play with more a bent wrist, though I've seen Armenians play with straight wrists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvtfHBaJq_0

Jody Stecher - 10-3-2021 at 12:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
As a follow up on this, I met up with John Berberian yesterday and asked him to look at my right hand technique. He said everything looked perfectly fine and that it was normal for my wrist to be bent (He himself bends his wrist while playing). To be fair, I may have subtly lessened the bend of my wrist since this thread, so he wasn't seeing anything too extreme.
Honestly, the big problem with me may just be some general tension in the way I play, and not anything wrong with my actual technique. I could be holding the mizrab a little too tightly, for example.
For some context, here's a video of him playing.
I wonder if some of this is just regional differences in technique. It seems to me that Turks/Armenians play with more a bent wrist, though I've seen Armenians play with straight wrists.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvtfHBaJq_0
[/url]

This is an efficient oud right hand. Look at his thumb. It is nearly parallel with the strings.

Alaa - 10-5-2021 at 03:00 PM

I second John, playing with holding the risha very tight will fatigue the wrist, just try to press your thumb hard against the index with no risha and try to move your wrist around, it makes more difficult thus maybe this what is causing the soreness, this what many tend to do, including me when trying to go a bit faster