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noob size question

Amon - 10-18-2021 at 07:22 PM

Good morning everyone,

how is everyone doing? The season change over here is messing everybody up, so I'm using the low energy times to do some oud reading.

A friend of mine told me he owns a persian oud. Unfortunately, he's on the go and couldn't provide a picture.
He says it's "the smallest oud size", calling it a 30cm by 15cm (widest soundboard point x depth).

in comparison, my Zeryab "iraqi style" is 35cm by 17cm.

My noob question is this: I don't believe I am a big or tall man, I'm very average in central europe, 180cm tall. I've never felt "tall" or "long-armed", and yet with my elbow at the bottom of the soundboard, my risha easily reaches the top of the central hole and the bottom of the fingerboard there. So I keep pulling my elbow back to have my hand hovering above the scratch plate. The length of the soundboard from bottom to fingerboard is 35cm. The body feels deep for to me, but I often see videos of oud players barely reaching the scratch plate even with their elbow hugging the bottom of the oud. I'm assuming those are turkish ouds(?)

I'm also assuming bigger oud bodies will be louder, which is a no-no for me as Tokyo houses have very thin walls (lol, I wish I were joking...)

My question I guess is, are persian ouds typically smaller but it doesn't matter in terms of player body size versus instrument size, or is my friend's persian oud just very small because he didn't know what to buy?

I know in the world of guitarists, everytime someone asks such a question, he either gets a "what about ukulele?" or "be happy to have something to play on regardless of the fit" lol

I'm just trying to get a decent "size wisdom" for the future.

Thank you, and sorry for the scattered thought-sentences.

You all stay safe and sane wherever you are,

insh allah this crazy situation will end soon.

Cedryc

coolsciguy - 10-19-2021 at 09:10 AM

Hi Cedryc,

Some Persian oud makers use smaller bowl patterns to construct ouds that are more tuned to Persian ears (though this statement is debated fiercely). Persians also make brbat which has an inherently smaller bowl. If you are medium build, the smaller bowl oud will probably fit you better and your right elbow wont be as elevated compared to when you play your Zeryab. If you like this new fit or not, that's up to your preference. Eventually you will get used to it and moving between instruments will require conscious adjustments on your right hand.

Smaller ouds can have lower volume, but this also depends on bracing and soundboard thickness/material. Ask your friend who the luthier is. Here is an example of a Persian oud made by Arafati:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD3-aP0xwc

Another one made by Lotfi here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLJgz6RgXDC/

dusepo - 10-19-2021 at 09:30 AM

Some Iranian luthiers do indeed build ouds with smaller bodies. I also offer a model like this, based on Iranian designs (though I'm not Iranian myself, just a fan of the music). The key is to find an oud which has a body which is comfortable for your body. If you are an average size man this might not be an issue for you. Smaller bodies tend to work best for women because our bodies are a different shape. Of course if you are in Japan it could be difficult to find different oud sizes to try, but if possible, go to music shops, try some, and see what is most comfortable for you. A smaller-bodied oud does not always have less volume, but it will often have less bass response.

With a body that small (the dimensions you mentioned), I wonder if your friend in fact has a barbat? Does it also have a longer neck than usual, meeting at the sixth instead of the usual fifth? The smallest Iranian-made oud I've seen is still bigger than the dimensions you mentioned. It's possible, but...

For thin walls, I wonder if an electric oud might work for you? Not as a main instrument, but for practice when people are asleep etc.? I play (and much prefer) acoustic most of the time, but if I want to practice after about 10pm or before 9pm, I use an electric oud and headphones.

Brian Prunka - 10-19-2021 at 02:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Amon

He says it's "the smallest oud size", calling it a 30cm by 15cm (widest soundboard point x depth).

in comparison, my Zeryab "iraqi style" is 35cm by 17cm.

So the Persian oud is indeed quite small. Your "Iraqi style" oud is rather shallow, but this is not uncommon on Iraqi ouds in my experience. For comparison, my oud by Peter Sayegh is 36in across and 20cm deep. Most Arabic ouds I've played are 18-20cm deep, though occasionally I've found some deeper.

Quote:

My noob question is this: I don't believe I am a big or tall man, I'm very average in central europe, 180cm tall. I've never felt "tall" or "long-armed", and yet with my elbow at the bottom of the soundboard, my risha easily reaches the top of the central hole and the bottom of the fingerboard there. So I keep pulling my elbow back to have my hand hovering above the scratch plate. The length of the soundboard from bottom to fingerboard is 35cm. The body feels deep for to me, but I often see videos of oud players barely reaching the scratch plate even with their elbow hugging the bottom of the oud. I'm assuming those are turkish ouds(?)

Maybe this is a terminology issue, but in standard playing position, your elbow should not be near the soundboard. Your hand should be about halfway beetween the soundhole and the bridge, the soundhole should be approximately in line with your right knee, and your elbow should be behind/away from the soundboard. If your elbow is coming up to the soundboard, you will indeed find your hand up near the soundhole (and have a host of technical/ergonomic problems as well).

Turkish ouds generally have smaller bodies, so if anything this tendency would be worse.

Maybe you could share a video of you playing or at least what you are talking about to clarify.

Quote:

I'm also assuming bigger oud bodies will be louder, which is a no-no for me as Tokyo houses have very thin walls (lol, I wish I were joking...)

Not necessarily, but possibly. The larger bowl volume has more to do with the frequency range that it is expected to produce (like a cello has a bigger body than a violin). Loudness is more dependent on the skill and control of the player; if you really have issues with volume, then perhaps a semi-hollow electric oud might work best for you.

For reference, I am 182cm tall, though I have somewhat long arms for my height. So I think a bowl depth of 17-19cm should easily be fine for you.

Amon - 10-19-2021 at 11:31 PM

Hi everyone! Thank you for the detailed answers

As usual, the internet blows my mind. I hope the kids these days realize how lucky they are to have this ability to ask professionals and veterans for information in this manner

Thanks again!

Also thank you for the links!

Yes, my point of puzzlement was basically how most videos I see show players with the inside of their elbow touching the oud rim, and their hand hovering at the right place (middle of the body). In my case, to do that I need to have my elbow 15-20cm away from the oud, regardless of the angle. It makes me wonder how big a body they're using, so when my friends told me his oud was 30x15cm, it sounded like my hand would reach the fingerboard like a guitar-tapping player lol

His oud is an Arafati. I think I saw one on Negar Bouban's videos, but I'm guessing anything she plays is going to sound good LOL

So far my Zeryab feels like what I was expecting for a first oud, but I'm not sure I would enjoy a deeper body (at least not before losing another few pounds around my belly lol) One of my professional guitarist friends has a few acoustic guitars he can't play anymore after having gained weight during the pandemic. Everybody was laughing at it, but I guess it's a real issue for performers.

@Brian >>> woah, 18-20cm deep body sounds like a big baby to hug, but that makes sense since I'm watching mostly arabic oud players. They really seem to have to wrap their arm around that soundboard to reach the strings. By comparison I feel like I can reach anywhere, even overweight, which is fun to experiment with on a first oud I guess. But I'll definitely have to find a teacher soon enough to make sure I don't get bad habits.

Like @Dusepo says, I won't be able to go around trying sizes and types in Tokyo... unfortunately. There are a couple hardcore Japanese players who've probably spent as much time in the Levant as in their own country, but I can't really go and fool around with their instruments lol Maybe after covid...

Sidenote, my next purchase is going to be an electric model. I'm unsure what to buy at this point though. If I had the funds I'd go for one of Sylvain's. I saw a fully electric model online that has a MIDI port and allows it to be played with Garage Band on iOS and anything MIDI, but they're trying to sell it for 5000 or 6000 USD, which is a 4500 rip off just for a midi port.

to answer @dusepo, I do think my friend's oud is similar to the cedar(greenish top) Arafati Ms. Bouban is playing half the time when she's not using her german model.

Speaking of which, and I apologize for the topic leap, but how do you all feel about having "more bass response" on an oud?
Typing about Ms. Bouban, I remember her saying she liked the Arafati a lot but did feel like they could have more bass to them, which I suppose is why she is enjoying her german ouds a lot (talk about booming bass there...) But personally, on my Zeryab (and I have the same "issue" with other instruments) I feel that the low C bass stands on its own apart from the other strings. I wonder whether with the oud that's a good thing, or whether it would be better to have a smooth transition from open C to open F.

My favorite handpan(steel drum played with the fingers) is the same: the central bass note is booming and powerful, and I love it, but there is definitely a gap between it and the next higher note, which is technically still very "bassy", but integrates more fully with the other keys.

Is it desirable on an oud to have the lowest string/drone to "stand out" from the other courses? I feel like on an acoustic guitar all the strings have a smoother relation to their neighbors.

Brian Prunka - 10-20-2021 at 07:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Amon

Yes, my point of puzzlement was basically how most videos I see show players with the inside of their elbow touching the oud rim, and their hand hovering at the right place (middle of the body).

I think part of the issue here is that you are mistaken about what you think you are seeing. It can be difficult to accurately assess what is happening in a 2-dimensional video, but if you look at professional oud players, the inside of their elbow is not touching the oud rim.

Look at this video of Simon Shaheen, it's a nice one because there are multiple camera angles and both close-up and distant shots. You can see that his elbow is nowhere near the soundboard.
https://youtu.be/dbuP7O2yzd8?t=1930

Here's another video, by Samer Totah. I can understand looking at this why it might look at first glance like his elbow is at the soundboard (it's a pretty puffy shirt), but if you look closely it's just like Simon in the video above, the elbow is quite far from the soundboard. It's harder to tell in this kind of video where the oud soundboard is parallel to the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQpUkscCa_Q

Note that in both videos, the player's chest is not parallel to the oud soundboard. This is very important for good posture with Arabic ouds (Persian and to some extent Turkish ouds, with their smaller bodies have more leeway). In order for the arms and shoulders to be aligned, the soundboard and neck must angle away from the player slightly.

In a video like Totah's, it's a little hard to see this because we naturally notice that the oud is parallel to us, the viewers. But if you look at his body posture, he is turned about 1/4 away from the camera (3/4 view). In Simon's video it's easier to see because the camera is not fixed directly at the oud.

This makes the bowl depth much less of an issue since the part of the oud where the right arm goes is angled back, reducing the depth at that point.

Regarding bellies — I remember a couple of older oud players when I started out who had rather 'robust' physiques. Their approach was to rest the oud on top of their belly, like a shelf. Seemed to work

Brian Prunka - 10-20-2021 at 07:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Amon

Speaking of which, and I apologize for the topic leap, but how do you all feel about having "more bass response" on an oud?

Is it desirable on an oud to have the lowest string/drone to "stand out" from the other courses? I feel like on an acoustic guitar all the strings have a smoother relation to their neighbors.

People may have different thoughts, but in my experience, it is desirable to have as uniform a response across the instrument as is possible. Different people may prefer different things as far as overall tonal character of the instrument, but essentially all the strings should be equally loud/present and similar tonal character. Having a noticeably louder or quieter string, or much brighter or bassier string, is detrimental in my opinion.

dusepo - 10-20-2021 at 09:52 AM

There are measurements of Negar Bouban's Arafati oud here: https://oudmigrations.com/2018/11/05/the-oud-in-iran/
Slightly larger than your friend's one, hence my surprise at hearing of one that even smaller!

Amon - 10-20-2021 at 08:15 PM

thanks both of you

Life savers

wow, yes it does seem like my friend has got the baby size of the family lol

@brian thanks for the details! Good to know, I will keep all of that in mind when watching my daily oudporn on instagram. There are a couple shops spending a lot of time demo-in their new products, it's great brainwashing lol
I'm glad you agree on the bass thing.

@dusepo thank you for the link! By the way, I meant to tell you, if you're using an electric/silent instrument oud or guitar often, BOSS (Roland?) has an amazing wireless headset for guitars and basses that should work fine with other strings. It's called the Waza Air. It uses your phone to set up amp themes, although you can ditch the phone and use whatever is loaded onto the headset, but more importantly, the software allows you to create a virtual space around your ears, so that you can choose where you want the sound to come from. (ie. from a virtual amp in front of you, from the stage behind you like in a live concert situation, or in a more "Studio" way. Everything can be set and adjusted. The headset costs around 400 USD but it really blew my mind a couple years back.

video HERE

coolsciguy - 12-11-2021 at 08:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by dusepo

There are measurements of Negar Bouban's Arafati oud here: https://oudmigrations.com/2018/11/05/the-oud-in-iran/
Slightly larger than your friend's one, hence my surprise at hearing of one that even smaller!

Arafati on his websites says he has 3 oud sizes:

Width (cm) x depth (cm)
30 x 15
34 x 17
36 x 18

Length is 70-71 in all 3 sizes.

So the 30x15cm oud that Amon wanted to buy is indeed his smaller oud likely made for young players.

majnuunNavid - 12-11-2021 at 03:45 PM

Over the years on this forum I've always found the Oud size question very puzzling. It seems everyone has a different experience.

I'm only 170 cm tall, square body type/arm to leg ratio so my arms are just the right size for my body. I also have small hands; about 18 cm from the base of my palm to the tip of my middle finger.

I've never had an issue holding any of the Ouds I've tried or owned.

The only time I had minor annoyances holding an Oud was when I had a smaller Barbat.

My Barbat had a smaller width in the face; I don't have it any more so I can't measure it. So it always sat a little lower than my largest Syrian Oud.

BUT, the bowl was the deepest of all the Ouds I ever played. The angle my arm came around the back caused my forearm to really dig into the edge of the Oud after playing for more than 30 mins.

My larger Oud with Syrian specifications 61.5 cm string length was no problem. It sat a little higher, so my arm didn't extend as much to reach the sweet spot.

And the longer scale length is still no problem for my small hands.

My learning curve was a different experience. I felt like it took me at least 2 years of serious playing/studying Oud before I got comfortable holding it. It is the most awkward instrument to hold. But after a few years, it became a non-issue. The problems just disappeared.

As long as you stick with it daily, take breaks, stretch, and are not causing your body any serious pain, maybe the issue will disappear; then maybe not. But I do recommend you pull the elbow back. I try to have folks avoid using the elbow pocket to hold the edge of the Oud.

If you have any back problems as a result of playing Oud, you should be able to get that sorted out with some visits to your local Seitai practitioner