Mike's Oud Forums

Use of Microtones in Armenian Kef music

ArmoOudist - 2-1-2022 at 01:39 PM

For all you Armenians (or Greeks, or general Kefjis) in the forum, I'd like to pose a question. I've asked this about three different times but have gotten four different answers.

To what extent are microtones used in Armenian Kef music (here I'm thinking of the type of Armenian dance music popularized by Richard Hagopian, John Berberian, Chick Ganimian, etc.)? Some people tell me that they are used similar to the way Arabs use them (more set microtones that occur within certain maqams), while others tell me that they only "exist" as blue notes in the way jazz vocalists use them to put more emotion into a certain phrase.

Again, I get a different answer every time I ask this question. I'd like to know what people say.

kampanas - 2-1-2022 at 04:24 PM

Listening to the Taksim on John Berberian’s Expressions East album makes me think that the microtone is a very deliberate thing. The makam is quite classic ussak to me, definitely does not sound like an expressive ornament or inflection, rather it builds the character of the piece.

I feel like your ear is going to be the best tool to answer this particular question.

ArmoOudist - 2-1-2022 at 05:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by kampanas  
Listening to the Taksim on John Berberian’s Expressions East album makes me think that the microtone is a very deliberate thing. The makam is quite classic ussak to me, definitely does not sound like an expressive ornament or inflection, rather it builds the character of the piece.

I feel like your ear is going to be the best tool to answer this particular question.


You know, it's funny, when I talked to John, he told me microtones weren't that big a deal in Armenian music.

Jody Stecher - 2-1-2022 at 07:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
Some people tell me that they are used similar to the way Arabs use them (more set microtones that occur within certain maqams), while others tell me that they only "exist" as blue notes in the way jazz vocalists use them to put more emotion into a certain phrase.
.


These are not two different things. Microtones are mood colors as much as they are pitch colors.

I would suggest you give more credence to what is heard than to what is Officially Said. The fact is that until the invention of electronic tuners (which are often "out-of-tuners") and pitch "correctors" (which are usually wrong for actual existing musical genres) there was no music on earth without microtonal shading. This includes classical european music. For instance most decent classical violinists know that D flat and C sharp are not only two different pitches but that there are several shades of each, to be used according to the context of the phrase. And some don't know this in their conscious minds but they do know it in their fingers and in their ears, and they automatically adjust fingering to make the music tuneful.

Another thought: it might be more productive to compare Armenian microtonal shading with Turkish music than with Arabic.

ArmoOudist - 2-2-2022 at 03:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  
Some people tell me that they are used similar to the way Arabs use them (more set microtones that occur within certain maqams), while others tell me that they only "exist" as blue notes in the way jazz vocalists use them to put more emotion into a certain phrase.
.


These are not two different things. Microtones are mood colors as much as they are pitch colors.

I would suggest you give more credence to what is heard than to what is Officially Said. The fact is that until the invention of electronic tuners (which are often "out-of-tuners") and pitch "correctors" (which are usually wrong for actual existing musical genres) there was no music on earth without microtonal shading. This includes classical european music. For instance most decent classical violinists know that D flat and C sharp are not only two different pitches but that there are several shades of each, to be used according to the context of the phrase. And some don't know this in their conscious minds but they do know it in their fingers and in their ears, and they automatically adjust fingering to make the music tuneful.

Another thought: it might be more productive to compare Armenian microtonal shading with Turkish music than with Arabic.


Makes sense.

kampanas - 2-2-2022 at 03:57 AM

Richard Hagopian touches on the topic briefly in this interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuCXl_9XTZY

SamirCanada - 2-2-2022 at 05:42 AM

I think the question is answered by listening like Jody said.
There might be some political anti-eastern sentiments in saying "micro tones dont exist or they aren't a big part" I noticed that with Greek music and musicians also. Those are two nations which endured a difficult history with the ottoman empire to say the least. In current day Armenia ex Soviet there was a systemic elimination of micro tones actually, the main example being their Qanun which has removed mandals to make sure it only plays in natural pitch. John Belzikjan once told me the kef music players and the generations of exiled Armenians from the ottoman days were the guardians of the historical Armenian music of the time.

Listen to this, if that's not microtones I don't know what is
https://youtu.be/eLcznML_cgs

maraoud108 - 2-2-2022 at 07:30 PM

This question is a fascinating can of worms. My own thoughts about go back to Komitas and his collection of folk songs. When he was doing this (early 20th century) the sciences were really into classification and finding the "pure" forms of cultural phenomena. Part of Komitas' quest was to find the pure "Armenian" music, which he believed had been sullied by Turkish microtones and embellishments. While his arrangements of folk songs are beautiful, they're also reflective of his European conservatory training. This isn't a knock on them - again they're beautiful, but they're a product of his times. I have some books that one of is students created of Anatolian folk songs and it's a shame because there's hundreds of folks songs in the two volumes, but they're fixed into equal tempered notation: there's nary a microtone.

This influence of Komitas is what I believe has influenced musicians in Armenia. And it's a bit sacrilegious to critic Komitas at all, though I have seen some Armenian musicians start to wonder about where all the microtones have gone...

Now Kef musicians learned the music from 78 records from Armenians who were from the Ottoman Empire. There's microtones all over the place in that music, and you can hear it in Kef music. I personally think it's less pronounced than with contemporary Turkish musicians and the 78 records, and my theory is that it's because the guitar was used as a bass instrument in Kef bands, so the tunings gradually became more equal tempered.

But that also might be total hogwash. I don't know! Either way the music is ALL beautiful!

Also, what Jodi said is totally true. Mozart wrote in lesson notebooks that C# and Db and F# and Gb were all different notes.

And the Rast is history.....hehe....

RobMacKillop - 2-3-2022 at 03:39 AM

Renaissance and early baroque keyboards often had different keys for # and b - this says nothing about Kef music, of course, but does provide more evidence of microtones in European music.

coolsciguy - 2-3-2022 at 10:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by kampanas  
Richard Hagopian touches on the topic briefly in this interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuCXl_9XTZY


Richard says that the single base string on Oud was added to the instrument in the 60s by musicians in US, and then folks in the middle east adopted it. How true is this statement?

Jody Stecher - 2-3-2022 at 12:10 PM

it depends on what is meant by "middle east" and which "folks" are being referenced. Armenians were everywhere, including the middle east. We know that Hrant was playing a 5 course oud on his recordings and holding one in photos in the mid 20th century. He lived in Turkey. Is that the middle east? Some say no, some say yes.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the ouds played in the USA by Armenian immigrants and Americans of Armenian descent were made in Turkey (mostly by luthiers who were ethnic Armenians or Greeks). SOMEONE had to make room on the bridge, nut and pegbox for another string. I haven't seen a 10 course Manol-type oud that has been modified for an 11th string. There's a lot of things I haven't seen so maybe these exist.

But then we also know that much earlier there were Turkish-made 6 course ouds with the bass string closest to the floor. We know that
Serif Muhieddine Haidar ("Targan") was playing such an oud and living near New York City much earlier than the 1960s. He was not playing Kef music and was not Armenian. He was in a different cultural setting. And we also know that there were 6 course and 7 course oud made in Cairo in the 19th century. We know that the Nahat family in Damascus (indisputably in the "middle east") was making 6 course ouds in the late 19th century and early 20th century. That does not mean that *some* Armenian players on the Eurasian side of the Atlantic did not change from 5 to 6 course ouds under the influence of Armenian-Americans.

coolsciguy - 2-3-2022 at 06:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
it depends on what is meant by "middle east" and which "folks" are being referenced. Armenians were everywhere, including the middle east. We know that Hrant was playing a 5 course oud on his recordings and holding one in photos in the mid 20th century. He lived in Turkey. Is that the middle east? Some say no, some say yes.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the ouds played in the USA by Armenian immigrants and Americans of Armenian descent were made in Turkey (mostly by luthiers who were ethnic Armenians or Greeks). SOMEONE had to make room on the bridge, nut and pegbox for another string. I haven't seen a 10 course Manol-type oud that has been modified for an 11th string. There's a lot of things I haven't seen so maybe these exist.

But then we also know that much earlier there were Turkish-made 6 course ouds with the bass string closest to the floor. We know that
Serif Muhieddine Haidar ("Targan") was playing such an oud and living near New York City much earlier than the 1960s. He was not playing Kef music and was not Armenian. He was in a different cultural setting. And we also know that there were 6 course and 7 course oud made in Cairo in the 19th century. We know that the Nahat family in Damascus (indisputably in the "middle east") was making 6 course ouds in the late 19th century and early 20th century. That does not mean that *some* Armenian players on the Eurasian side of the Atlantic did not change from 5 to 6 course ouds under the influence of Armenian-Americans.



Thank you Jody, this makes sense.

ArmoOudist - 2-3-2022 at 07:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
it depends on what is meant by "middle east" and which "folks" are being referenced. Armenians were everywhere, including the middle east. We know that Hrant was playing a 5 course oud on his recordings and holding one in photos in the mid 20th century. He lived in Turkey. Is that the middle east? Some say no, some say yes.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the ouds played in the USA by Armenian immigrants and Americans of Armenian descent were made in Turkey (mostly by luthiers who were ethnic Armenians or Greeks). SOMEONE had to make room on the bridge, nut and pegbox for another string. I haven't seen a 10 course Manol-type oud that has been modified for an 11th string. There's a lot of things I haven't seen so maybe these exist.

But then we also know that much earlier there were Turkish-made 6 course ouds with the bass string closest to the floor. We know that
Serif Muhieddine Haidar ("Targan") was playing such an oud and living near New York City much earlier than the 1960s. He was not playing Kef music and was not Armenian. He was in a different cultural setting. And we also know that there were 6 course and 7 course oud made in Cairo in the 19th century. We know that the Nahat family in Damascus (indisputably in the "middle east") was making 6 course ouds in the late 19th century and early 20th century. That does not mean that *some* Armenian players on the Eurasian side of the Atlantic did not change from 5 to 6 course ouds under the influence of Armenian-Americans.


One thing you have to maybe consider is that (at least, from what I noticed), a lot of the oud world (especially pre-internet) was isolated from each other.
What I mean by this is, the Armenians *all* tended to take after Udi Hrant and Marko Melkon, while Arab players wouldn't have listened to them as much. Similarly, you'll rarely hear Richard Hagopian or John Berberian cite Munir Bashir as an influence.
I've heard multiple stories as to how the bass string was added to the oud. Arabs will say it was an Arab invention, Armenians will say it was an Armenian invention. Both could be true.

Jody Stecher - 2-3-2022 at 09:15 PM

I agree that both could be true. That's part of what I meant.

But I don't agree about the isolation in the USA. In nightclubs and other places where the oud was played, musicians from all over what I'll call "the Maqam World" mingled, interacted, and even played in the same bands. In New York City, Arabs (from various places with various musical styles), Greeks, Albanians, Armenians, etc were aware of each other's intonation, repertoire, technique, and musical style. The same is said to have been true in Istanbul, in Cairo, and I expect in other places too.

ArmoOudist - 2-4-2022 at 04:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
I agree that both could be true. That's part of what I meant.

But I don't agree about the isolation in the USA. In nightclubs and other places where the oud was played, musicians from all over what I'll call "the Maqam World" mingled, interacted, and even played in the same bands. In New York City, Arabs (from various places with various musical styles), Greeks, Albanians, Armenians, etc were aware of each other's intonation, repertoire, technique, and musical style. The same is said to have been true in Istanbul, in Cairo, and I expect in other places too.



You're right about that.

ChanningPDX - 2-8-2022 at 02:25 PM

I'd highly recommend tracking down Sylvia Alajaji's book "Music and the Armenian Diaspora: Searching for Home in Exile."

I won't attempt to summarize the book, but it does spend a lot of time exploring the varied attitudes among different Armenian communities of just what exactly "Armenian music" is.

There's a lot of background given about the creation of Armenian-American Kef music as an outgrowth of the earlier "8th Avenue Scene" in NYC (which included Arabs, Greeks, Turks, and Sephardic Jews as well as Armenians), including interviews with Richard Hagopian and Ara Dinkjian.

I don't have the time to go through recordings at the moment to check, but one thing I've noticed in the past is that in terms of intonation, some early Armenian musicians recorded in the US reminded me of early recordings of Turkish musicians in Istanbul (Tanburi Cemil Bey, etc.). Both could be said to have employed intonation and stylistic practices that have since changed among more recent generations of Turkish musicians. (I'm thinking here in particular of makams like Hüzzam, for instance.)

People like Richard Hagopian and John Berberian inherited a rich repertoire of music from the previous generation of Armenian-American musicians like Marko Melkon; both, I think, also studied with Udi Hrant during his visits to the US (at least Hagopian did, anyway... Can't remember for sure.) Certainly, those musicians employed a vast range of microtonal intervals in their music. A lot of the Turkish-language folk songs popular among Kef bands tend to be in makams like Hüseyni, and the slightly flattened second degree sounds about right to me.

Alajaji's book has some very interesting/depressing passages about intra-community conflict that came to a head as the Armenian American community absorbs large numbers of Lebanese Armenians in the '70s and '80s. The story of the Armenian community in Lebanon is really fascinating in itself, but they very consciously attempted to stamp out elements of Turkish music, language, and culture, embraced Komitas' legacy, and attempted to invent their own version of Armenian culture that could be suitably "pure." When Lebanese Armenians came to America, they brought these attitudes with them, and a lot of the guys from the Kef bands were excoriated in public and in angry letters to the editor in community newspapers for playing Turkish music. Certainly some musicians changed the repertoire they performed in public at that point to avoid further criticism.

It's a welcome development that younger musicians today are rediscovering and reinterpreting older recordings.

maraoud108 - 2-8-2022 at 03:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ChanningPDX  

Alajaji's book has some very interesting/depressing passages about intra-community conflict that came to a head as the Armenian American community absorbs large numbers of Lebanese Armenians in the '70s and '80s. The story of the Armenian community in Lebanon is really fascinating in itself, but they very consciously attempted to stamp out elements of Turkish music, language, and culture, embraced Komitas' legacy, and attempted to invent their own version of Armenian culture that could be suitably "pure." When Lebanese Armenians came to America, they brought these attitudes with them, and a lot of the guys from the Kef bands were excoriated in public and in angry letters to the editor in community newspapers for playing Turkish music. Certainly some musicians changed the repertoire they performed in public at that point to avoid further criticism.

It's a welcome development that younger musicians today are rediscovering and reinterpreting older recordings.


I cannot recommend Alajaji's book enough.

Eric Stern Music - 2-8-2022 at 11:16 PM

Well-said, Channing. I was introduced to Alajaji's work through this wonderful interview with her. It's entitled "Music and Silence in the Armenian Diaspora."

https://www.ottomanhistorypodcast.com/2020/04/alajaji.html

There's one thing that members here will find frustrating! At one point she is talking and starts saying something about the ud player and what makam they are playing, and the interviewer cuts her off and asks her to basically dumb it down. Probably makes sense for a wider audience, but then they get sidetracked and never go back to the specific makam she was about to explicate. Anyway it's a great interview.

Jody Stecher - 2-9-2022 at 06:37 AM

I listened to the first five minutes but had to stop because the clash of simultaneous music and talking was becoming too much for me. Especially vocal music. Two speaking voices in English and one vocalist singing in Armenian and meanwhile the musical style was closer to pop Greek than anything from Armenia. All at once. I will give it another try later. Speaking during singing is something I wouldn't do. It makes a jumble of the spoken words and a jumble of the sung words. So all of it is obfuscated. If the music is worth talking about surely it worth listening to without being covered by spoken words. And if the spoken words are worth hearing surely it should not be covered up by music, which in this context becomes noise.

Eric Stern Music - 2-9-2022 at 09:21 AM

Well Jody, by my count the music starts to fade out before the two minute mark and then disappears. To me it doesn't sound that different from any NPR interview where they have some sound design in the beginning. Fairly standard these days but if you don't like it, by all means don't listen (I didn't produce it so no skin off my back)! But I do think other members of this forum will find the podcast very informative and interesting.

maraoud108 - 2-9-2022 at 02:45 PM

The Ottoman History podcast is a GREAT resource. There's several episodes about music and the non-music ones are fascinating as well.

Jody Stecher - 2-9-2022 at 06:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Eric Stern Music  
Well Jody, by my count the music starts to fade out before the two minute mark and then disappears. To me it doesn't sound that different from any NPR interview where they have some sound design in the beginning. Fairly standard these days but if you don't like it, by all means don't listen (I didn't produce it so no skin off my back)! But I do think other members of this forum will find the podcast very informative and interesting.


I am one of the forum members who would find it interesting if I could hear what was said. I have no quibble with the content, only with the presentation. Yes the first music fades soon but then more comes back. Anyway I'll listen again and see if I can avoid getting "cross-eared" from two sets of words coming at me at once.

Eric Stern Music - 2-11-2022 at 04:00 PM

Jody, it might be because of all the heterophony in your life. Try some Bach and then listen to the podcast. It will warm up your ears for the polyphony of those two sets of words. ;)

(Incidentally your student Wyetta is a friend of mine. They always speak so well of you).

ArmoOudist - 2-12-2022 at 03:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ChanningPDX  


Alajaji's book has some very interesting/depressing passages about intra-community conflict that came to a head as the Armenian American community absorbs large numbers of Lebanese Armenians in the '70s and '80s. The story of the Armenian community in Lebanon is really fascinating in itself, but they very consciously attempted to stamp out elements of Turkish music, language, and culture, embraced Komitas' legacy, and attempted to invent their own version of Armenian culture that could be suitably "pure." When Lebanese Armenians came to America, they brought these attitudes with them, and a lot of the guys from the Kef bands were excoriated in public and in angry letters to the editor in community newspapers for playing Turkish music. Certainly some musicians changed the repertoire they performed in public at that point to avoid further criticism.

It's a welcome development that younger musicians today are rediscovering and reinterpreting older recordings.


My grandfather went through some of this personally. He is an Armenian from France. When he moved to the U.S. in the late 1940s, this was a point in time when Armenians would regularly listen to Turkish music like it was no big deal. The church and Armenian organizations would throw parties where Turkish music was regularly played.

In the seventies, as more Armenians from Lebanon came over and Armenians in America became much more politically aware and militantly nationalist, he got some nasty comments from people for playing Turkish music at an Armenian event. He was sort of stunned by the whole thing. This type of music had been played for years and enjoyed by genocide survivors, and all of a sudden it was considered "improper" to play this type of music.

This even spilled into types of dancing. Some Armenians would complain that the rhythm of a song was "too Turkish" instead of Armenian. My grandfather and mom would look at them bewildered. How did these people know what was Armenian and what wasn't?

If you grew up in a family who came here right after the genocide, like mine did, hearing some Turkish music mixed into the Armenian was pretty normal, as well as the oud and the dumbeg. It wasn't until I was a little older and started attending an Armenian school where the population was mostly from Aleppo and Beirut that I was exposed to a *completely* different idea of what made music "Armenian" (generally more nationalistic themes, as well as the use of synthesizers and accordions). I still run up against people who claim that the oud is a "Turkish" instrument...
Then of course, there's the more standard reason that the old Kef music fell out of style...it became associated with the older generation (much like you're not going to hear twenty somethings listening to Duke Ellington).