Mike's Oud Forums

Observations/Questions about Rast Makam

ArmoOudist - 6-15-2022 at 11:39 AM

I just wanted to share some general observations and ask some questions about Rast. I'm assuming a lot of you already know about this anyway.
From what I can tell, Turks/Greeks/Armenians generally play Rast as basically a D Major scale. There are technically microtones on the third and seventh notes, but the microtones are so minute, you barely notice them.

As an example, I'm linking a few versions of Kemani Tatyos's Rast Saz Semai by Armenian and Greek ensembles to demonstrate what I'm talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKgD5gG7N-k&list=OLAK5uy_nTV4Szw...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oamlev8YW0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUiUPXOmtOs

If you contrast this with the way Arabs play Rast, the microtonal aspects of the makam seem much more exaggerated. This is an egyptian ensemble playing the same piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwLfHYSg3IM (song starts at 2:40)

Checking out different taksims however, the microtones don't seem as exaggerated. This is a Rast Taksim by Udi Hrant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NwfJn-Hn4

Listening to different Arab players, the microtones don't feel as exaggerated as that Egyptian piece, but it could just be that my ear is not well trained to pick these things up yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w6v87aak3w

My question is, how did you learn to understand Rast? Those of you who learned to play oud in the Turkish/Armenian style, were you told to view it as basically a major scale? Those of you who learned in an Arab style, did you see the microtonal notes as straight "quarter" flats?

From my own studying, Turkish and Armenian music traditionally split their tones up into eighths or ninths, while the Arabs standardized their tones into fourths in the early twentieth century. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.



maraoud108 - 6-15-2022 at 11:52 AM

It's really cool hearing this piece played by an Egyptian ensemble. For sure their third pitch is much lower. I have always been told that the third note in Rast is "slightly" flat, which explains why the Greek/Armenian/Turkish ensembles/players play it like that.

The Arab way sounded wrong to me at first, but then I started to really dig it. It's really cool hearing the contrast. A teacher once told me that in Syria you could tell which area someone was from based on how flat their third in Rast was, so I imagine this is related to that.

Jody Stecher - 6-15-2022 at 03:14 PM

Yes the placing of the pitch Segah/Sika, the third of Rast maqam, is lower in Arabic music than in Turkish/Armenian/Greek music. Yes, you are right, it is lowest in Cairo. Less so the closer one gets to Turkey geographically. But no, the placement of the pitch Segah in Turkish/Armenian/Greek music is not as high as even the lowest pitch recognizable as a major third. When I first started listening to makam music I also perceived it as a version of a major third but I soon discovered it was not so. Yes, it takes a while to discern the difference. Compare the third in makam Gerdanye or in makam Mahur with the third in Rast and you'll notice the difference.
To answer your question, I never heard it said that Rast could be understood as a minutely altered version of D major or any major scale. Rast is Rast. For what it's worth, I never heard the opinion that maqam music was best understood from the viewpoint of western European music. In my opinion Rast is Rast and is best understood on its own terms.

One way to discern the difference is to use the slow-down feature on the Youtube page you linked to Hrant's oud solo. Get it as slow as it will go and play your oud along with him. You will soon see that to be in tune with him you need to place your finger a little lower than where a major third would be found on the oud fingerboard.

One more thing worth mentioning: In my opinion the Cairo pitch of the third of maqam Rast is not "exaggerated', it is simply lower. Looking at it this way/listening to it this way might make things easier to hear and understand. Here's what I mean. An online dictionary defines "exaggerate" as a transitive verb that means to"Represent (something) as being larger, better, or worse than it really is.". And I am saying that the pitch sika (segah) in the Rast maqam of Cairo is not lower than it "really is". It is simply lower than the pitch Segah of points further east. It is as real as the Turkish version and none of the versions are versions of a major third. And the major third itself has varieties. Any accomplished Western concert violinist can verify that.

ArmoOudist - 6-15-2022 at 03:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Yes the placing of the pitch Segah/Sika, the third of Rast maqam, is lower in Arabic music than in Turkish/Armenian/Greek music. Yes, you are right, it is lowest in Cairo. Less so the closer one gets to Turkey geographically. But no, the placement of the pitch Segah in Turkish/Armenian/Greek music is not as high as even the lowest pitch recognizable as a major third. When I first started listening to makam music I also perceived it as a version of a major third but I soon discovered it was not so. Yes, it takes a while to discern the difference. Compare the third in makam Gerdanye or in makam Mahur with the third in Rast and you'll notice the difference.
To answer your question, I never heard it said that Rast could be understood as a minutely altered version of D major or any major scale. Rast is Rast. For what it's worth, I never heard the opinion that maqam music was best understood from the viewpoint of western European music. In my opinion Rast is Rast and is best understood on its own terms.

One way to discern the difference is to use the slow-down feature on the Youtube page you linked to Hrant's oud solo. Get it as slow as it will go and play your oud along with him. You will soon see that to be in tune with him you need to place your finger a little lower than where a major third would be found on the oud fingerboard.

One more thing worth mentioning: In my opinion the Cairo pitch of the third of maqam Rast is not "exaggerated', it is simply lower. Looking at it this way/listening to it this way might make things easier to hear and understand. Here's what I mean. An online dictionary defines "exaggerate" as a transitive verb that means to"Represent (something) as being larger, better, or worse than it really is.". And I am saying that the pitch sika (segah) in the Rast maqam of Cairo is not lower than it "really is". It is simply lower than the pitch Segah of points further east. It is as real as the Turkish version and none of the versions are versions of a major third. And the major third itself has varieties. Any accomplished Western concert violinist can verify that.


I guess I could have used a more precise word than "exaggerated". I'm used to hearing Turkish Rast, so to my ear the Egyptian Rast sounds more exaggerated.

I was told by my oud teacher to think of Rast as a D Major scale because the microtones are so slight. He was probably saying this to help me understand from a more Western perspective.

Brian Prunka - 6-15-2022 at 03:48 PM

The John Berberian version is very clearly not a major scale, but the Hagopian one is closer. the third example is a little inconsistent but also sounds slightly more 'major'-sounding. But I don't agree that any of these are "basically a major scale." They all sound like Rast to me (although different flavors and clearly different from the Arabic versions). The Udi Hrant Taksim especially is really obviously Rast and not a major scale. The recordings with clarinet tend to veer closer to major because of the the construction of the instrument, at least in my experience (varies by clarinetist).

Arab Rast will definitely have the third and seventh lower than any Turkish rendition. If anything the third in the Michael Ibrahim taqsim you posted is lower than the one in the Abdel Hay Sama'i. This is not "exaggerated", it's just the precise and expected sikah note for this tradition. I expect this is more or less what you intended but I think it's important to be specific.

A few thoughts:

The tuning of these notes has varied over both time and geography, and the Arab world is large. So Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt might have different tendencies, particularly at different times. And even within one country, there might be local differences (Damascus vs. Aleppo, for instance) or differences in time period (1920s Egypt vs 1960s Egypt). Even a single artist, like Qasabgi, Oum Kalthoum, or Mohamed Abdel Wahab would perform with different intonation in different time periods. Armenia, Greece and the Arab world all made certain choices to 'localize' their music and arguable de-Ottomanize it to some extent. In Armenia and Greece my understanding is that this tended toward the removal of many microtonal aspects while in the Arab world the approach was to retune the microtones to local tastes and reimagine the maqam definitions and seyir in various ways. Armenian-Americans seemed to have different priorities than those in Armenia, not to mention the many Armenians in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt.


The ideas about intervals being divided into 9ths or quarters is really more about conceptualization than actual precise performance practice, in my opinion and observations. Arab musicians "think" of the notes as being quarter tones, but in practice the precise intonation of each note is simply learned by ear and may not be an exact quarter tone (usually not). This is not so different from how Ottoman/Armenian/Greek players actually learn the intonation, but the concept applied is more precise. The Ottoman approach is probably a bit closer to the reality of practice, but it is perhaps a false sense of precision as the exact pitches are still variable (as your examples show) and learned by ear rather than math.

Regardless, both traditions do contain an actual analog of the major scale (Acem or 3Ajam), which it might be instructive to explore to highlight the differences (particularly in Ottoman traditions).

I rather like the wide variety of interpretations of the maqamat/makamlar and the different characters, though my bias is always toward the Arab repertoiore and style.

ArmoOudist - 6-15-2022 at 05:20 PM

Hmm, next time I talk to my oud teacher, I'll try to ask him what he meant. But he isn't the first person I've heard describe Rast to me as the Middle Eastern equivalent of the major scale. All of these people were Turks and Armenians though, and it seems like all of you are more familiar with the Arab style, so I'm not sure if that's where the discrepancy is coming from.
At the end of the day, I'm probably just overthinking it. It's probably best to just listen to interpretations I like and try to play along with that.

Brian Prunka - 6-15-2022 at 07:47 PM

Well, I think most traditions would agree that Rast is "the Middle Eastern equivalent of the major scale" in the sense that it is the primary reference point, the most ubiquitous tonality, the 'parent' of much of the other scales, etc. It's the 'basic' or 'default' scale.

That doesn't really mean that it is a major scale (not even a modified one), just that Rast occupies the same primary role in Middle Eastern music that the Major scale does in Western music. Perhaps this is what your teacher meant, who knows.

Ultimately words and concepts are just that; what anyone says about music is just their own framework for understanding.
The real facts are the sounds, and we fortunately have many recordings for reference. When I listen to Turkish or Armenian music in Rast, I don't hear a scale that sounds like a major scale (including in your examples above).

So I agree that 'overthinking' is to be avoided - and there's no such thing as 'overlistening'. If you listen and can play what you've heard, it doesn't matter what you call it.

maraoud108 - 6-16-2022 at 01:09 PM

I coincidentally heard this version by a Syrian ensemble today. It's at the beginning of the Ya Shadi il-Alhan recording:

https://maqamlessons.com/analysis/yashadilalhan.html

ArmoOudist - 6-16-2022 at 03:43 PM

So for what it's worth, I asked who I consider a very accomplished Armenian oudist about some of what we've been talking about. He was one of the people who said that Rast was basically a D major scale. I asked him to clarify a bit about what he meant by that. He told me that the thing to remember about Rast is that when you are going up the scale, you play the segah note basically close to a major third, but while going down the scale, the seventh and third tones are played flatter, either by 1/8 or 1/4.

My oud teacher (also Armenian, and who I believe had some contact with Udi Hrant) told me that Rast is our equivalent to a D major scale. I did mention to him that I often see microtones used in this makam, but he told me that the microtones are so minor and subtle, it's best to think of it as a major scale.

Take from this what you will. I guess I would say that these musical traditions are broad and vary based on the region you're from and will be understood differently. It's just interesting to see how these things can vary from player to player.

majnuunNavid - 6-16-2022 at 11:04 PM

This is a fascinating subject that I've been thinking about a lot of lately. And I'm actually interested in at what point does it become a different maqam when you change the intonation.

The fascinating phenomenon is that we have in Arabic and Turkish repertoire some shared repertoire that originate from the Ottoman school of music that permeated their way into Arabic music. As people have pointed out if you listen to the same piece from different ensembles, you get a different vibe.

So I wondered why are certain Ottoman pieces part of the Arabic repertoire and not others from the repertoire of maqam rast.

So I actually tried playing various pieces in maqam rast with Turkish intonation and then again with Arabic intonation (generally flatter). And I realized that some melodies just DONT work with Arabic intonation to the degree that it's unrecognizable.

Here's an example. There's a beautiful piece by Dede Efendi (of whom some saz semai are performed in Arabic tradition) called Rast Sarki "Yine bir gülnihal ald? bu gönlümü".

Try listening to the Turkish version: https://youtu.be/cJY7tbks15w

Then attempt to play it with Arabic intonation.

You will puke.

To this effect the Arabic version of Maqam Rast has a completely different vibe. Some melodies work, and some don't. The intention of the composer is important. These features influence one another.

What I'm also interested in is historical intonation. Turkish Rast intonation largely follows Abdul Qadir Meragi's definition of rast intonation.

That's how I reason that some repertoire is shared and other's are not. Why some maqamat don't even register in the Arabic tradition. There is an aesthetic to each region that determines melodic and interval choice.

I've also heard Sami Abu Shumays describe microtonal intonation in the Arab world being generally sharper at the beginning of the 20th century, and that it became flatter. I need to get around to asking him about it.

Any one listen to any old recordings and experienced that sharper intonation?

Ethan - 6-19-2022 at 12:14 AM

Concernant le maqam Rast en ré il existe un maqam qui s’appelle Nishaburk/Nishaburak .
Dans la musique turque il est quasiment considéré comme une gamme majeure (avec mi/fa#) comme le rapporte le baron Rodolphe d’Erlanger (aidé par le cheikh Ali Darwish qui avait d’ailleurs étudié en Turquie). Dans la musique arabe cependant ce maqam est réellement considéré comme un Rast avec mi/fa demi # .

English translation by Google (and the administrator)

Regarding the maqam Rast in D there is a maqam called ishaburk/Nishaburak.
In Turkish music it is almost considered a major scale (with E/F#) as reported by Baron Rodolphe d'Erlanger (helped by Sheikh Ali Darwish who had also studied in Turkey). In Arabic music however this maqam is actually considered a Rast with E/F half # .

Jason - 6-20-2022 at 03:10 PM

Very interesting thread! Somewhat off-topic but this reminds me of how the third degree of the major scale has drifted over time in the Appalachian music traditions of America. There are some early 20th century recordings where an, almost, minor third is played whereas a major third is usually played today.

Jody Stecher - 6-20-2022 at 03:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
Very interesting thread! Somewhat off-topic but this reminds me of how the third degree of the major scale has drifted over time in the Appalachian music traditions of America. There are some early 20th century recordings where an, almost, minor third is played whereas a major third is usually played today.


I would express it differently: in the old recordings the singers and players were in tune. They were not affected by tempered scales or by electronic tuners (which don't agree with each other ). The major thirds were often identical or close to the pitch of the 4th upper partial of the overtone series and occasionally slightly lower. This was certainly lower than the major thirds of a modern piano but it was always closer to that than to any minor third. It was never even as low as the lowest Cairo sikka third of Rast. I remember reading a transcript of an interview between East Kentucky banjo player Rufus Crisp and .... it was possibly Stu Jamieson or Margot Mayo... and he was asked why he pulled the frets out of his store-bought 5-string banjo. He replied he did that so he could play in tune. The frets were not in the right places for the required pitches of the old music.