Mike's Oud Forums

Issue aligning risha with pickguard

Victoria - 2-3-2023 at 03:41 AM

Hi!

I have started my oud exercises but I am having this weird issue. Whenever I see others holding the oud, it looks like their hand and risha align with the pickguard whenever they rest their upper arm on the oud. But if I try to do that, my hand is at a very sharp angle and my wrist will become too bent. Which, according to Navid, is not the right position. Am I a giant since I am not able to do that? Or is my forearm too long? :( My oud is a full size arabic oud.

This is how I look and as you can see the risha aligns with the soundhole instead :mad: :


Any advice is welcome :bowdown:

EDIT: it appears my oud is a bit weird because its pickguard is placed closer to the rear edge than on most ouds. So maybe I will have to hold the oud more like a turkish oud?

maraoud108 - 2-3-2023 at 07:12 AM

The most important thing is that you hand and arm are relaxed and that there's no tension. There's also no "right" place to play. Each place has it's own sound. Playing near the bridge has a sound, playing near the sound hole has a sound and they are all "right" but each one sounds different.

I'd start by playing where your hand feels comfortable and then move a bit. The hand should be relaxed and free to move.

Victoria - 2-3-2023 at 11:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by maraoud108  
The most important thing is that you hand and arm are relaxed and that there's no tension. There's also no "right" place to play. Each place has it's own sound. Playing near the bridge has a sound, playing near the sound hole has a sound and they are all "right" but each one sounds different.

I'd start by playing where your hand feels comfortable and then move a bit. The hand should be relaxed and free to move.



Thanks a lot for your reply, your advice are very valuable to me. I didn't know you could play the strings elsewhere :applause: Then I will definitely start in a way which is more comfortable for my arm.:) Especially considering that the pickguard of this oud is situated a bit far towards the bridge. I have noticed that the sound varies quite a lot depending on where I play. I will experiment with it a bit :)

Thanks again!:bowdown:

Brian Prunka - 2-4-2023 at 08:35 AM

It's hard to say without a picture showing the whole oud and its relationship to your body.

There is certainly a range of usable positions for playing, but you are extremely far over the soundhole, which is not a generally effective position.
What I suggest to my students is that you want to be able to use the entire range of sounds, so somewhere in the middle of the extremes (bridge, soundhole) is a good 'default' to aim for. This may or not be where the maker put your pickguard! (especially on Arabic ouds there is little agreement on exactly where to put the pickguard).

I would be less concerned with the exact position of your risha hand than the likely possibility that your hand being that far over the soundhole that there are more significant problems with how you are holding and positioning the oud. In my experience, when someone ends up in this position, they are usually holding the oud in an un-ergonomic and atypical fashion. Can you hold the oud in place without using your left hand for support at all?

As Maraoud says, the most important thing is being relaxed and without tension; so up to a point it's best to just play however is comfortable. But at some point you almost certainly will hit a limit with this positioning and need to correct it to progress. One shouldn't sacrifice comfort, but the traditional positioning is all quite ergonomic and should be quite relaxed for most people with proper practice.

However, the oud you are using appears not to be proportioned in the typical way of an Arabic oud - the bridge appears to be very close to the edge of the bowl (assuming there's not some weird distortion from the camera angle). It's possible that your hand is in an okay position and that your oud is just built . . . let's say with an idiosyncratic design.

With all due respect to Navid (and I obviously don't know exactly what he said), there are different schools of thought on wrist angle, and some excellent players regularly use a fairly "extreme" angle with excellent results.

My philosophy on this, as with most of the physical aspects of technique and ergonomics, is that there is not a single "right" position, but a range of positions, and what we are really aiming for is to have the flexibilty to use the entire range of possibilities. So we would aim for a moderate angle not because it's always "better" than a more extreme angle but because it allows us to access the whole range of angles in a relaxed way. We don't want to get locked into any position, even if it's the so-called "right" one. We're aiming for relaxed flexibility.

The same philoosophy applies to arm positioning, risha grip, etc.

Victoria - 2-4-2023 at 01:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
It's hard to say without a picture showing the whole oud and its relationship to your body.

There is certainly a range of usable positions for playing, but you are extremely far over the soundhole, which is not a generally effective position.
What I suggest to my students is that you want to be able to use the entire range of sounds, so somewhere in the middle of the extremes (bridge, soundhole) is a good 'default' to aim for. This may or not be where the maker put your pickguard! (especially on Arabic ouds there is little agreement on exactly where to put the pickguard).

I would be less concerned with the exact position of your risha hand than the likely possibility that your hand being that far over the soundhole that there are more significant problems with how you are holding and positioning the oud. In my experience, when someone ends up in this position, they are usually holding the oud in an un-ergonomic and atypical fashion. Can you hold the oud in place without using your left hand for support at all?

As Maraoud says, the most important thing is being relaxed and without tension; so up to a point it's best to just play however is comfortable. But at some point you almost certainly will hit a limit with this positioning and need to correct it to progress. One shouldn't sacrifice comfort, but the traditional positioning is all quite ergonomic and should be quite relaxed for most people with proper practice.

However, the oud you are using appears not to be proportioned in the typical way of an Arabic oud - the bridge appears to be very close to the edge of the bowl (assuming there's not some weird distortion from the camera angle). It's possible that your hand is in an okay position and that your oud is just built . . . let's say with an idiosyncratic design.

With all due respect to Navid (and I obviously don't know exactly what he said), there are different schools of thought on wrist angle, and some excellent players regularly use a fairly "extreme" angle with excellent results.

My philosophy on this, as with most of the physical aspects of technique and ergonomics, is that there is not a single "right" position, but a range of positions, and what we are really aiming for is to have the flexibilty to use the entire range of possibilities. So we would aim for a moderate angle not because it's always "better" than a more extreme angle but because it allows us to access the whole range of angles in a relaxed way. We don't want to get locked into any position, even if it's the so-called "right" one. We're aiming for relaxed flexibility.

The same philoosophy applies to arm positioning, risha grip, etc.


Thanks for your comprehensive reply. It is much appreciated. I am oh so new to all this! Even finding the right chair to use. It is so different to what I am used to with the guitar because of the bowl shape body of the oud :)

I have now posted a photo of me with the entire oud visible. So what do you think? Isn't that a special oud :( It certainly looks a bit weird with that bridge and pickguard position. Maybe I will just have to get used to an extreme approach to the strings. But I will have to find a way to be more flexible in my positioning no matter what. It is important to be able to access the whole range of positions as you described. As of know, I am unable to achieve this. Not without bending my wrist so that it becomes really tense.

Here is a photo of me and the oud (I used my laptop webcam so I apologize for the quality!). Here I am using an office chair which is a bit high in setting along with a footstool in its lowest position to raise my right leg. In this position I am able to hold the oud in place without using my left hand at all. But as it shows, my hand is quite far towards the soundhole:



If you want to check out the dimensions of the oud more clearly, I posted some photos in this thread.

Brian Prunka - 2-4-2023 at 02:08 PM

Okay, that is helpful.

1) First thing is that the face of the oud needs to be perpendicular to the floor, not tilted toward the ceiling as you have it.
You can even have it very slightly tiilted toward the floor - many virtuosic oud players find this to be an even better position.

2) Second thing is that your left elbow is too far back and your right elbow is too far forward. While in videos it may often appear that the oud face is parallel to the chest, it should actually be at about a 25-35 degree angle (so that the pegbox is farther away from you than the bridge). This will keep your elbows and shoulders more aligned with one another.

3) Third thing is that your right elbow seems a bit too close to the oud, this is probably why your hand ends up over the soundhole. The edge of the oud should meet your forearm more. This will be easier if address #2 above.

It's hard to tell in the photos, but if you wanted to take the following measurements it would help figure out the proportions of the oud:
a) distance (in cm) from nut to neck-body joint
b) distance from neck-body joint to bridge
c) distance from bridge to edge of the oud
d) distance from bridge to edge of soundhole
e) distance from nut to edge of soundhole

It looks less weird in this pic, but that would help make sure that there's not something strange about your oud that is complicating things.

I think of the main range of the wrist angle being between about 30 to 45 degrees. Everyone's body is different of course.

You may also find it helpful to relax and drop your wrist slightly so that your thumb would be slightly visible to someone across from you (not sure how to explain this, but if you look at your two pictures above your thumb is invisible).

These photos of Simon Shaheen may help:
https://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=118277&aid=4...
https://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=118277&aid=4...

John Erlich - 2-4-2023 at 10:12 PM

I would add that I like the technique Palestinian oud player Samer Totah, whose right arm positioning, I think, represents a pretty "orthodox" playing style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQpUkscCa_Q&ab_channel=SameerTot... My technique is pretty similar to his, i.e., reaching the right arm over the bottom of the instrument, over the bridge, and picking relatively close the bridge. This is not to say that this positioning is the only legit way. For example Iraqi oud master Munir Bashir tended to position his right arm more over the side of the instrument, than the bottom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLp7x6LIl98&ab_channel=AhmadMilh... (I personally don't prefer this, and encourage beginning oud students to try something closer to Samer's positioning, at least in the beginning.)

Victoria - 2-5-2023 at 04:43 AM

Seriously. That was some extremely useful advice you both gave me. It changes everything!

I situated myself in from of a mirror this time to try out your approaches. First of all, the shoulder thing really had a huge impact on the comfort and risha placement. And having the pegbox pointing a bit in front of me. Not to mention the oud being perpendicular to the floor. When I allow the edge of the oud to meet my forearm more it also changes a lot! Now the risha is much closer to the pickguard. And even the thumb placement made everything more comfy. :) So nice!!

And John, I also tried your way of holding the right arm (the Samer Totah way). This works really well also and when I use this position the risha is even exactly above the pickguard. Wow! :cool:

I am very grateful for your insights which are all very valuable to a beginner like myself. It had started to become a frustration to me but now I am more in sync with my oud. :bowdown:

And now for the measurements of my oud. They are as follows:

Distance from nut to neck-body joint: 25 cm
Distance from neck-body joint to bridge: 40 cm
Distance from bridge (string "floating point") to edge of the oud: 9 cm
Distance from bridge to edge of soundhole: 15 cm
Distance from nut to edge of soundhole: 34,8 cm

Brian Prunka - 2-5-2023 at 10:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Victoria  
Seriously. That was some extremely useful advice you both gave me. It changes everything!

I situated myself in from of a mirror this time to try out your approaches. First of all, the shoulder thing really had a huge impact on the comfort and risha placement. And having the pegbox pointing a bit in front of me. Not to mention the oud being perpendicular to the floor. When I allow the edge of the oud to meet my forearm more it also changes a lot! Now the risha is much closer to the pickguard. And even the thumb placement made everything more comfy. :) So nice!!

And John, I also tried your way of holding the right arm (the Samer Totah way). This works really well also and when I use this position the risha is even exactly above the pickguard. Wow! :cool:

I am very grateful for your insights which are all very valuable to a beginner like myself. It had started to become a frustration to me but now I am more in sync with my oud. :bowdown:

And now for the measurements of my oud. They are as follows:

Distance from nut to neck-body joint: 25 cm
Distance from neck-body joint to bridge: 40 cm
Distance from bridge (string "floating point") to edge of the oud: 9 cm
Distance from bridge to edge of soundhole: 15 cm
Distance from nut to edge of soundhole: 34,8 cm


Glad it helped! Many beginners, particularly those who didn't grow up around oud players have very similar issues, so after a while these seem to be the suggestions that usually help people get on track.

Your measurements seem a little odd, what is the total vibrating string length? (nut to bridge)
According your measurements it is 65cm, which is huge. Also the nut to body joint should be 1/3 the total, in your measurements it's much more.

Victoria - 2-5-2023 at 10:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by Victoria  
Seriously. That was some extremely useful advice you both gave me. It changes everything!

I situated myself in from of a mirror this time to try out your approaches. First of all, the shoulder thing really had a huge impact on the comfort and risha placement. And having the pegbox pointing a bit in front of me. Not to mention the oud being perpendicular to the floor. When I allow the edge of the oud to meet my forearm more it also changes a lot! Now the risha is much closer to the pickguard. And even the thumb placement made everything more comfy. :) So nice!!

And John, I also tried your way of holding the right arm (the Samer Totah way). This works really well also and when I use this position the risha is even exactly above the pickguard. Wow! :cool:

I am very grateful for your insights which are all very valuable to a beginner like myself. It had started to become a frustration to me but now I am more in sync with my oud. :bowdown:

And now for the measurements of my oud. They are as follows:

Distance from nut to neck-body joint: 25 cm
Distance from neck-body joint to bridge: 40 cm
Distance from bridge (string "floating point") to edge of the oud: 9 cm
Distance from bridge to edge of soundhole: 15 cm
Distance from nut to edge of soundhole: 34,8 cm


Glad it helped! Many beginners, particularly those who didn't grow up around oud players have very similar issues, so after a while these seem to be the suggestions that usually help people get on track.

Your measurements seem a little odd, what is the total vibrating string length? (nut to bridge)
According your measurements it is 65cm, which is huge. Also the nut to body joint should be 1/3 the total, in your measurements it's much more.


They certainly are helpful suggestions :) The only thing I find difficult is having the oud perpendicular to the floor because that makes me unable to observe the strings while playing.

I made an error :) Distance from nut to neck-body joint is 20,5 (not 25 lol). This seems like an appropriate length because it is approx. 1/3 of 60,5 which is the total vibrating length.

Here is another photo of the oud after I replaced the possibly 35 year old strings with new ones the other day :) I find it to have a bit of an odd design compared to most ouds? The more I watch oud videos on YouTube and images online, the more strange looking I find this oud to be in terms of materials and visual details:) Have you seen something like it?

Brian Prunka - 2-5-2023 at 01:07 PM

Quote:


They certainly are helpful suggestions :) The only thing I find difficult is having the oud perpendicular to the floor because that makes me unable to observe the strings while playing.


That is a feature, not a bug!
You should not be looking at the strings while playing. The eyes are not the body part that needs to know where the strings are, the hand is. There are many tricks to teaching your hand where the strings are without looking.

Quote:

I made an error :) Distance from nut to neck-body joint is 20,5 (not 25 lol). This seems like an appropriate length because it is approx. 1/3 of 60,5 which is the total vibrating length.


That makes more sense. It's still not precisely right because that would mean the length should be 61.5, much longer. But it's not too far off. 60.6 total would be 20.2 for the neck, which some luthiers use.

This is a medium-sized oud. Arabic ouds range from about 58 to 62 cm typically, so you are right in the middle.

Quote:

Here is another photo of the oud after I replaced the possibly 35 year old strings with new ones the other day :) I find it to have a bit of an odd design compared to most ouds? The more I watch oud videos on YouTube and images online, the more strange looking I find this oud to be in terms of materials and visual details:) Have you seen something like it?


Most Arabic ouds one sees are Egyptian or Syrian style, or possibly Iraqi. This oud has a bit more rustic look, perhaps being from Bahrain has something to do with it. There's a lot of variety in Arabic ouds!

Victoria - 2-6-2023 at 06:01 AM

Quote:

That is a feature, not a bug!
You should not be looking at the strings while playing. The eyes are not the body part that needs to know where the strings are, the hand is. There are many tricks to teaching your hand where the strings are without looking.


OK then. Makes sense! Like driving a car I guess. I tried it today and it actually isn't so hard hitting the strings without looking. However, I am cheating a bit sometimes by looking in the mirror ;)
Quote:

That makes more sense. It's still not precisely right because that would mean the length should be 61.5, much longer. But it's not too far off. 60.6 total would be 20.2 for the neck, which some luthiers use.

This is a medium-sized oud. Arabic ouds range from about 58 to 62 cm typically, so you are right in the middle.


I measured it again. Now I got 60,75 for the free vibrating string length and 20,5 for the neck length. But nevertheless, it is not too far off I guess. But not precise either. :)

Wow I can't believe this oud is medium sized! I find it to be massive and I am quite tall. The larger ouds must be grotesque in size :-O
Quote:

Most Arabic ouds one sees are Egyptian or Syrian style, or possibly Iraqi. This oud has a bit more rustic look, perhaps being from Bahrain has something to do with it. There's a lot of variety in Arabic ouds!


I see. I think this oud has similarities with some Moroccan ouds I have seen on the web. But I rarely see this rustic type of oud haha. And I still don't know when it dates to even though my guess is mid to late 1980's.

Anyway, thanks for all your help. It certainly is a difficult task getting to know the oud. :)