Mike's Oud Forums

Recordings of older players (tanbur)

cdroms - 3-9-2023 at 07:55 AM

I hope this isn't too off-topic, but I saw a thread about Ney so I figured it would be ok.

I mean players older than Necdet Yasar. The two-disc set of Mesud Cemil is fairly accessible, but does anyone know how to get the two Izzeddin Okte CDs in the U.S.? I'm stuck listening on YouTube. I'm very curious what we can learn about old-school style from the 3CD set of Tanburi Muhyiddin Ba'yun from Amar Foundation, but I haven't heard it yet and anyway 78RPM recordings will always be at least a little disappointing.

In the liner notes ( https://oliverhoareltd.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Awakening-of-a... ) to the 'Awakening of a Tanbur' CD (where you can hear Murat Aydemir play an 18th-century instrument belonging to the sultan of the day), scholar Walter Feldman says:

"The technique known in the second half of the eighteenth century, and associated with Tanburi Isak Fresco–Romano (d. 1814) differs in that in de-emphasizes the right hand strokes in favor of glissandi with the left hand. Tis technique would have passed into oblivion were it not for Cemil Özbal, a medical doctor in Gaziantep who was recorded in the 1960s"

Well these non-publicized recordings must be a holy grail for tanbur enthusiasts. But maybe this amazing late-50s recording of Laika Karabey, who shared a teacher with Ozbal (bypassing both Cemil Bey AND Mesud Cemil), demonstrates something similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmt65pkhXu4 . Certainly I find it extraordinarily compelling.

Jody Stecher - 3-9-2023 at 09:02 AM

Some of the Ba'yun recordings are on Youtube. Some are labeled tanbur, some buzuq. It may be the same instrument. For instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdvSYA5UTOQ

I have not seen the Amar liner notes. His "tanbur" might not be similar to the Ottoman one. He plays Arabic music. All the same your question about whether is playing has clues about earlier Ottoman tanbur playing is worth pursuing. The oldest Turkish oud recordings I have heard is less different from some Arabic oud playing than what is heard nowadays. Back then it was not a political necessity to makes one's music "Turkish". It seems that making one's music musical was more of a priority. Maybe there was something similar in tanbur playing.

Okte was so musical. His recordings are easily found on YouTube. For instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbX6x3_TUQE

Why is listening to him there a problem?
I don't think these old recordings will sound better on CD. Youtube music is very compressed and gives a false impression of recently recorded music. For old 78 rpm recordings and cylinders there never was any fine sonic detail for youtube to obliterate. Sometimes the compression actually helps. As for radio broadcasts, these were already compressed.

cdroms - 3-10-2023 at 06:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Some of the Ba'yun recordings are on Youtube. Some are labeled tanbur, some buzuq. It may be the same instrument. For instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdvSYA5UTOQ

I have not seen the Amar liner notes. His "tanbur" might not be similar to the Ottoman one. He plays Arabic music. All the same your question about whether is playing has clues about earlier Ottoman tanbur playing is worth pursuing. The oldest Turkish oud recordings I have heard is less different from some Arabic oud playing than what is heard nowadays. Back then it was not a political necessity to makes one's music "Turkish". It seems that making one's music musical was more of a priority. Maybe there was something similar in tanbur playing.

Okte was so musical. His recordings are easily found on YouTube. For instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbX6x3_TUQE

Why is listening to him there a problem?
I don't think these old recordings will sound better on CD. Youtube music is very compressed and gives a false impression of recently recorded music. For old 78 rpm recordings and cylinders there never was any fine sonic detail for youtube to obliterate. Sometimes the compression actually helps. As for radio broadcasts, these were already compressed.


Wow, that instrument does NOT sound how I expected! If I get hold of the liner notes and they clarify anything I'll post here. I WAS under the impression that tanbur and buzuq at this time had such different societal contexts that the terms would never have referred to the same instrument...

As for audio compression, I remember reading (not sure where...) that at least some of the Okte recordings were done privately by a researcher or student later in Okte's life (1970s?), and then released on two CDs later. But I'm not sure, still, how much of a difference it would make.

As for what you said about musical music and 'national' music, yes, it seems to go along with a trend I notice from Morocco to Japan, in music adopted as 'national classical music', of playing in a more 'didactic', 'clear', easily-notate-able style (or see for example the Iranian Radif as played by Yusef Forutan vs Nur-Ali Borumand)... which I guess sometimes has very compelling results, as in the case of Okte... but is also something I'm interesting in 'getting under', first as a listener and then theoretically as a player...