All alone with the oud: Is it really possible after all?

Hey again.

It is I, Victoria with all my silly questions lol.

So today I went practicing once again and I have been learning the oud for more than a month now. I practice two hours daily with few exceptions. I gotta say it is not an easy task because there are no teachers in this area. So I use Oud for Guitarists which is nice even though it is not an actual substitute for the physical presence of a teacher.

But today I once again feel so much pain in my wrist all the way to the middle finger. It is beginning to affect me in my daily life and I am beginning to think that maybe it is simply impossible for me to learn the oud without a teacher being present to correct my posture and playing. And those "zaps" of pain while I play has returned. I feel like I may have carpal tunnel syndrome. I don't know really but the pain is there all the time.

So should I go back to the guitar for now? What do you guys think of this situation? I fear the oud may end up as wall decor thb. Maybe I was a bit too optimistic on learning the oud without any teachers nearby because I underestimated the ergonomics of the instrument.

Thanks for reading

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

This is strange. It's not unheard of to have some wrist pain, particularly if playing incorrectly. And some people will have pain even if playing correctly (usually this is beginners over 50) due to other injuries or age-related stiffness etc. The middle finger pain seems unusual to me, usually people will have trouble with the radial nerve (caused by shoulder tension or misalignment, numbness in thumb or index finger), or sometimes the ulnar nerve (numbness in little finger or ring finger). Middle finger is likely the median nerve, which would be consisten with inflammation in the carpal tunnel. I'm not a doctor of course! https://myhealth.alberta.ca/Health/Pages/conditions.aspx?hwid=ax1000 Smart thing to do would be to take a little break from oud playing and other activities that might aggravate inflammation for a little while. Ice baths and anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen can help reduce both pain and inflammation. Even not meeting in person, a good teacher will likely be able assess many aspects of your technique and offer suggestions. One thing I might suggest is that perhaps you might be holding the oud too tightly? This could put pressure on your nerve if the oud is digging into your arm, especially if your median nerve happens to be close to the surface (there is great variability between people). An arm sleeve (possibly made out of a thermal shirt or some long underwear) that would protect your arm miight help a bit. I'll also say that 2 hours a day might be too much for a beginner in your circumstances (i.e., no teacher or direct guidance). A great deal can be accomplished in much shorter practice sessions and in non-physical kinds of musical practice, both of which are things a teacher can help you with. For example, if you practice a passage and make a mistake, then make sure to rehearse it mentally until it's clear before attempting it again physically. Muscle memory is generally a poor substitute for musical memory and clarity of intention, and most music-related injuries happen as a result of trying to fix problems in the latter by brute-forcing the former (at least in my experience). Of course, many things require muscle memory! But it's just a small piece of the overall puzzle. For now, I'd suggest taking a full break until you have at least a couple of consecutive days with no symptoms, then start back up again slowly.

Thanks a lot Brian for your valuable knowledge. It seems you are right in it being carpal tunnel syndrome. I still feel it on a daily basis even though I haven't been playing since then. I believe it is the ligament which has put pressure on the median nerve because of the angle when I am playing. I feel that the angle of my wrist is somehow too sharp. Maybe because of my long arms and hands which forces me to keep a more "steep" way of approaching with the risha. I am not really feeling I am holding it very tight and I don't feel any large pressure from the edge of the oud against my arm.

I am now on a break from playing but I gotta admit that I lost some of my motivation because I find this to be really hard without a teacher and I am not in a position where I can afford much online in person teaching

But I am guilty of brute forcing my way through the exercises. EVerything has been too much about muscle memory I admit. It is a good solution what you are suggesting with concentrating more on musical memory during exercises And I guess I practiced for too long each day.

Quote: Originally posted by MattOud

I like to switch between other instruments(guitar, piano), just to take a break and add diversity. I suffer certain pains as well(I have AS), but have never had nerve pain so bad that it made me think to stop. I agree with Brian that you should rest for a while then try up again slowly. My one son told me recently that I improved greatly after resting from the OUD and coming back a few weeks later. It becomes muscle memory eventually and doesn't take too long to get into it again. Where I live in Canada, there are no local teachers for me, and I am no longer a beginner and would want an advance teacher. There are some online venues that could really help as well(using zoom etc..) if you don't have anyone local to help...but everything cost money so you have to do what you can. Looking at your videos, I see nothing really wrong with your posture or playing...just a bit tense like any one starting, but you have great potential and should not quit. This musician help me learn alot of techniques as well and maybe take a break and watch some soothing videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0isCnadtA&list=PLwy2jpfOzt47Pz... Cheers, Matt

Hi Matt and thanks for your valuable answer. Maybe you are actually right that I should take a break and maybe practice the guitar a bit instead. I do feel that I am sometimes better when I had a few days away from the oud. So that totally makes sense regarding what your son told you. I have Aspergers syndrome so I like to concentrate intensely on one instrument so it is not feeling too great to switch instrument but I know I may have to for a while.

I will check out the video I totally know how you feel regarding the lack of local teachers. I have been using Oud for Guitarists until now and Navid is actually from Canada but unfortunately he moved to Japan (and I know Canada is a huge country haha).

Thanks for checking the video and for your input. I am happy to hear that I am not too far off after all.

I will take a break from the oud because I have no choise and I hope I will find a solution to this in the long run. Mostly by cutting a bit down on exercise time.

Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy

Hi Victoria, In the meanwhile, you can look into finding an online instructor. Like yourself, oud players are hard to find in my neck of the wood and my training has been online exclusively. An instructor can monitor your progress and keep you from injury/bad habits. You may find online classes to be more affordable as well.

Hi coolsciguy. Thanks for the reply. I will maybe do that but my problem is that I am an introvert and I will have to leave my comfort zone quite a bit in order to do that (especially as english isn't my mother tongue). But I will take a look anyway

Quote: Originally posted by Victoria

Hi coolsciguy. Thanks for the reply. I will maybe do that but my problem is that I am an introvert and I will have to leave my comfort zone quite a bit in order to do that (especially as english isn't my mother tongue). But I will take a look anyway

Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy

Quote: Originally posted by Victoria   Hi coolsciguy. Thanks for the reply. I will maybe do that but my problem is that I am an introvert and I will have to leave my comfort zone quite a bit in order to do that (especially as english isn't my mother tongue). But I will take a look anyway I get that. It maybe hard but you can look at it as therapy. A good class will give you a feeling of joy and relief, and eventually you'll make friends with your teacher. And you don't have to keep doing it of you don't like it. There is very little to lose. English is not my mother tongue either and communicating in musical terms is sometimes difficult. Rest assured, with a good instructor there won't be any judgements.

Thanks for your advice. I will look further into it.