Mike's Oud Forums

"Progress Check"

cdroms - 10-20-2023 at 02:44 AM

Hello everyone!

In case anyone has the time and inclination, I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on my playing.

5 or 6 months ago I started learning with a teacher in person, but after one month I stopped taking lessons, and since then I have just been noodling around in a handful of maqams, copying phrases from youtube videos, not always playing every day and not always playing for a long time, but slowly improving and anyway having a lot of fun.

This video is not exactly my most inspired playing, some repetitive phrases with the pitches of Hijaz, but this basically gives a sense of my level. I still have a hard time keeping my pitches correct, but I can hear my mistakes so I think that will just improve with time. And I am definitely struggling with the Arabic-style fast tremolo, but that also I can do much better than a month ago. And I have put almost no effort into getting a sense of typical melodic motion for Hijaz or any other maqam, so I am sure I am 'breaking the rules' left and right. But I wanted to confirm that I am ok on basic things like how I hold my hands, and just see what immediately stands out to people with much more experience than me.

https://youtu.be/jH5fz85GlDI

-------------------------------

My other question is: I am curious about different peoples' approaches to self-study. I like the idea of internalizing maqams 'intuitively' by learning a bunch of songs in each maqam, and just inferring from that data. But if I did this, I would rather start with old oral-tradition samais and bashrafs and that kind of thing, because I find that most of the great songs of 20th-century Arabic classical music are already combining maqams with major/minor tonality and implied chord progressions - well, I like these songs a lot, but since my background is completely western, it's way too easy for me to just hear the chords and not the maqams...

So then my ideal study material is something like a maqam-sorted online archive of tablature or notation for traditional bashrafs, samais, etc, with accompanying solo-oud recordings. Does such a thing exist? If not, what's the closest I can get? Does this even make any sense as a way to self-study?

Thanks in advance for any help with any part of this!

Brian Prunka - 10-22-2023 at 09:45 AM

Your left hand looks pretty good. The intonation on the Bb was a little wonky, kind of creeping up toward B half flat at times, watch out for that.

The picking hand needs some work, the way you're playing has a lot of wasted energy and produces a kind of "pinched" sound.
I'd suggest focusing on developing a good rest stroke for now.

Regarding self-study, etc.:
Really the only way to actually improvise melodies is to internalize the maqam by listening and learning. All the theory and rules can only help guide your listening (which can be very helpful), otherwise you are engaged in an academic exercise of playing something "correct" rather than actually making music.

It seems unclear whether you are trying to learn Turkish/Ottoman makam or Arabic maqam styles. Studying Semai/Sama3i and Pesrev/Bashraf compositions is going to reflect Ottoman style more.

The Arab maqam of the 20th century evolved differently, it's not just "westernization" but "Arabization" in embracing Arab folk traditions rather than the Ottoman court style that predated independence. Pre-20th century Arab style is best represented in Syrian repertoire, particularly Muwashshahat. Studying Syrian waslat, such as those recorded by Sabah Fakhri is a better introduction to the basics of the maqam.

The songs of Oum Kulthoum, Mohamed Abdel Wahab and Riad al-Sounbati are in general excellent representations of modern Arab maqam.

Once you get to Fairuz and Marcel Khalife you have much more Western influence. Abdel Halim Hafez and Asmahan (and to some extent Farid) are in between - some pieces are very maqam based but others tilt more towards major/minor tonalities.

Sites like neyzen.com have saz semai and pesrev notation organized by makam, you can look for recordings; most of the more popular pieces will be easy to find.

The most helpful things I have found are playing along with Sabah Fakhri recordings by ear and learning taqasim from recordings of great players like Mohamed el-Qassabgi, Riad el-Sounbati, Farid, Simon Shaheen, Dawud Hosni, Ameer Ammouri, Saeed Salam, George Michel, etc.

I'd avoid the "Iraqi" school (Munir Bashir, Jamil Bashir, Naseer Shamma, etc.) unless that is what you particularly want to learn; it's fine but will probably be confusing if interspersed with the more classic Arabic style.

In general, I think it will be much easier to intuit the basics if you focus on a particular style. If you are more interested in Turkish/Armenian style then focus on those players and that music.

cdroms - 10-23-2023 at 08:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  


The picking hand needs some work, the way you're playing has a lot of wasted energy and produces a kind of "pinched" sound.
I'd suggest focusing on developing a good rest stroke for now.



Thank you for all your help and information! I'm making rest stroke my next priority as I haven't thought about it at all. I think I know what you mean about playing with wasted energy - moving my hand way more than is needed? But not sure how that connects to a pinched sound - I guess by overall not putting enough force into each pluck.

I'm definitely listening to Turkish/Armenian players and Arabic players about evenly, aware that they're very distinct styles but freely imitating both. I saw a great video on youtube of a guy playing different 'flavors' on lavta, switching instantly between Arabic, Turkish, Greek, 'old', etc. and I would love to some day be at that level. So could probably stand to focus on one at a time...

Brian Prunka - 10-24-2023 at 07:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by cdroms  
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  


The picking hand needs some work, the way you're playing has a lot of wasted energy and produces a kind of "pinched" sound.
I'd suggest focusing on developing a good rest stroke for now.



Thank you for all your help and information! I'm making rest stroke my next priority as I haven't thought about it at all. I think I know what you mean about playing with wasted energy - moving my hand way more than is needed? But not sure how that connects to a pinched sound - I guess by overall not putting enough force into each pluck.


It's not "force" it really about where the energy goes - this is something that is hard to explain just in words, a teacher can help you work through it.
The way I think about it is all the "work" of the stroke is on the way up - that's where you're using your muscles to store energy and fighting gravity. The downstroke should really take no effort at all - it's just releasing the stored energy from the upstroke. Right now your downstroke is like a "push" but it should be more like a "fall". The sound of pushing the strings vs. falling into them is very different, this is where the pinched sound comes from.

A rest stroke can help you get used to this, because you always start from a resting position, rather than holding the pick in the air like you're doing.

Sorry, it's really difficult to explain just using words.
Quote: Originally posted by cdroms  

I'm definitely listening to Turkish/Armenian players and Arabic players about evenly, aware that they're very distinct styles but freely imitating both. I saw a great video on youtube of a guy playing different 'flavors' on lavta, switching instantly between Arabic, Turkish, Greek, 'old', etc. and I would love to some day be at that level. So could probably stand to focus on one at a time...


I can hear a bit of the Turkish sound in your playing. Personally, I think it probably will slow you down to not focus on one or the other. Which isn't to say don't listen to both, but as far as trying to actively study - pick one or the other for a while. It makes it a lot easier to notice the common elements in the style you're focused on, in my experience. Once you have one style comfortable, then it's easier to adapt to others.

Most players can't really switch their basic style though (I certainly can't). You can kind of add an accent via ornamention etc. or imitate certain players' vocabulary or phrasing, but the basic style is usually still somewhat there.

Assuming you meant this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgs6362y8SA

Very cool and he does have a grasp of lots of different styles and techniques. But clearly his basic style is Turkish-based. The so-called "Arabic" version sounds more like a Turkish musician parodying Arabic style, not really the way Arab players play.

Anyway, that's just my feeling about it and everyone is different so pursuing both styles simultaneously could work for you - who knows!

cdroms - 10-28-2023 at 01:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  

Anyway, that's just my feeling about it and everyone is different so pursuing both styles simultaneously could work for you - who knows!


Thank you again! I really appreciate you taking the time to try to explain at all, and I think this message clarified it a lot. Also, though, I know I definitely need to get back to studying with a teacher, and hope to do so at some point relatively soon.

Yes that is the video I was talking about, there too it's great to have your perspective and I hear what you mean now that I go back to it with more experience listening to Arabic-style players...

Jody Stecher - 10-28-2023 at 01:06 PM

To my ears, the early section where "Turkish style" is demonstrated on Lavta, is an excellent rendition of the style of Greeks who lived in Turkey 100 years ago. It's hard to say exactly what causes this but I can point to the particular use of silence between phrases and between notes, to the shape of phrases, and the slightly slower speed. This is no complaint! I actually prefer this style. I have heard so many old recordings of Greek musicians from both Smyrna/Izmir and Constantinople/ Istanbul and this player has heard that music too, I am sure.

cdroms - 10-29-2023 at 09:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
To my ears, the early section where "Turkish style" is demonstrated on Lavta, is an excellent rendition of the style of Greeks who lived in Turkey 100 years ago. It's hard to say exactly what causes this but I can point to the particular use of silence between phrases and between notes, to the shape of phrases, and the slightly slower speed. This is no complaint! I actually prefer this style. I have heard so many old recordings of Greek musicians from both Smyrna/Izmir and Constantinople/ Istanbul and this player has heard that music too, I am sure.


I wonder if a similar sense of phrasing can be detected on old rebetiko 78s, even if they don't actually include ud or lavta. That's my main point of reference for the community and time you're talking about. If you don't mind, I would be interested to know which musicians you're thinking of as having or not having this sensibility...

dusepo - 10-30-2023 at 01:54 AM

Caveat: I'm not an oud teacher, just a player and builder, so take my feedback with a pinch of salt. However here's a few things that come to mind...

Your phrasing is good. it really shows that you've been listening and copying in the traditional way.

Left hand and intonation sound good.

Your right hand is holding the risha nicely but the way you're moving your hand has a slight guitar-like quality to it, and this gives a different sound. Maybe that's a technique or what you're after. I don't know. It's just different to how I do it and I've seen others do it.

Your oud is angled slightly towards you, instead of facing straight outwards, perpendicular to the floor. There are some players that play like this (Ara Dinkjian for instance), but not the 'proper' way.

Jody Stecher - 10-30-2023 at 05:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by cdroms  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
To my ears, the early section where "Turkish style" is demonstrated on Lavta, is an excellent rendition of the style of Greeks who lived in Turkey 100 years ago. It's hard to say exactly what causes this but I can point to the particular use of silence between phrases and between notes, to the shape of phrases, and the slightly slower speed. This is no complaint! I actually prefer this style. I have heard so many old recordings of Greek musicians from both Smyrna/Izmir and Constantinople/ Istanbul and this player has heard that music too, I am sure.



I wonder if a similar sense of phrasing can be detected on old rebetiko 78s, even if they don't actually include ud or lavta. That's my main point of reference for the community and time you're talking about. If you don't mind, I would be interested to know which musicians you're thinking of as having or not having this sensibility...


What I wrote is an impression. Most of what I've heard was 45 years ago on homemade cassette recordings of old 78s, neither of which had the names of the individual musicians written down, only the principal singer. But I did find out a few names. One name that springs to mind is Lambros Leondaridis who played Politiki lyra/kemence with Rosa Eskanazi. By the time the influences of Smyrna, Constantinople, Thessaloniki, Athens/Piraeus and various islands and Greek mainland regions had all poured into the bouzouki-driven Rembetka melting pot the phrasing I'm referencing had gone or had become something else. That's my impression any way.

The formatting of who is replying to whom has gone loopy. I must have clicked in the wrong place. sorry 'bout that.

cdroms - 10-30-2023 at 08:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dusepo  
Caveat: I'm not an oud teacher, just a player and builder, so take my feedback with a pinch of salt. However here's a few things that come to mind...

Your phrasing is good. it really shows that you've been listening and copying in the traditional way.

Left hand and intonation sound good.

Your right hand is holding the risha nicely but the way you're moving your hand has a slight guitar-like quality to it, and this gives a different sound. Maybe that's a technique or what you're after. I don't know. It's just different to how I do it and I've seen others do it.

Your oud is angled slightly towards you, instead of facing straight outwards, perpendicular to the floor. There are some players that play like this (Ara Dinkjian for instance), but not the 'proper' way.


Thank you for this feedback! Also very helpful. My prior experience with string instruments is in guitar, so that influence is just happening unintentionally...

cdroms - 10-30-2023 at 08:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  


What I wrote is an impression. Most of what I've heard was 45 years ago on homemade cassette recordings of old 78s, neither of which had the names of the individual musicians written down, only the principal singer. But I did find out a few names. One name that springs to mind is Lambros Leondaridis who played Politiki lyra/kemence with Rosa Eskanazi. By the time the influences of Smyrna, Constantinople, Thessaloniki, Athens/Piraeus and various islands and Greek mainland regions had all poured into the bouzouki-driven Rembetka melting pot the phrasing I'm referencing had gone or had become something else. That's my impression any way.


Lambros Leontaridis is a great youtube search, thank you - phenomenal taxims and other stuff too.