Mike's Oud Forums

Lavta string tension question

coolsciguy - 6-3-2024 at 03:33 PM

Hi folks,

I recently acquired a fairly nice Lavta that has a 66 cm scale and a proper setup/string action. I am using Turkish oud strings on this Lavta and the tuning I am using is DAdg.

I find the string tension to be too high, so much that I need to take a break after playing it for 5-10 minutes. String tension is also affecting sonority and playability, such that some oud techniques are much more difficult to execute (e.g. arabic turn).

I was wondering if my experience as a new Lavta player is common and I just need to bear with it. Alternatively, I can order custom string sets with less tension and take it from there. Has anyone gone down this route?

Many thanks!

Jody Stecher - 6-3-2024 at 07:34 PM

Are you using Turkish oud strings designed for the pitches to which you are tuning them? That would produce a very high tension as Turkish ouds usually have a much shorter scale than 66cm. I had a lavta in my hands only once. The strings were tighter than on oud but not painful to play. Perhaps Lavta players use lighter gauges than would go on any oud. (?)


coolsciguy - 6-4-2024 at 04:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Are you using Turkish oud strings designed for the pitches to which you are tuning them? That would produce a very high tension as Turkish ouds usually have a much shorter scale than 66cm. I had a lavta in my hands only once. The strings were tighter than on oud but not painful to play. Perhaps Lavta players use lighter gauges than would go on any oud. (?)



Hi Jody,

Thanks for your insight. The designated pitches for turkish strings would be EBea and I am having my Lavta tuned DAdg which is a whole step lower.

In terms of playability, the most discomfort comes from holding down the strings against the soft frets, so it's mostly finger fatigue than pain. You can think of a newb guitar player who might have similar fatigue holding strings down against frets or holding chords with left hand. This fatigue is likely because of the frets to an extent that are non existent on the oud.


Jody Stecher - 6-4-2024 at 06:00 AM

I'm not sure if I understand. Are you placing your fingers on top of the frets?

coolsciguy - 6-4-2024 at 11:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
I'm not sure if I understand. Are you placing your fingers on top of the frets?


Jody, I play a few other fretted instruments and don't have issues with holding frets effectively/correctly. In the case of my Lavta, I think the high string tension makes it difficult to hold frets effectively and causes tension buildup in my left hand fingers.

Brian Prunka - 6-4-2024 at 05:10 PM

Tuning down a step is within a reasonable margin of error to compensate for the move from 585mm to 660mm scale length in order to get a similar tension.

So assuming your description of the situation is accurate, the tension is not high.

It doesn't take any more effort to push strings down to meet the frets than it does to push them down to meet the fingerboard, so this is a perplexing hypothesis.

I apologize in advance, but the only thing I can think of is that you are mistaken about something (strings, scale length, setup), or your technique is in some way causing the problem (hand position, excessive pressure on the strings).


Since all we can do is guess at the problem, for a fretted instrument the following are things I'd suggest exploring:
1) fingers go as close to the fret as possible without literally being on top of them, this will reduce the pressure needed to achieve a clean sound.

2) fingers press down only as far as needed to reach the fret firmly, and are not supposed to push all the way to the fingerboard as you would without frets - in fact this will make the strings play out of tune. This is a common problem when switching between instruments that require differing amounts of pressure.

3) the hand is leveraging the pressure between the fingers and thumb, not squeezing, the wrist is relaxed and the palm of the hand and ball of the thumb are uninvolved. Squeezing is inefficient and causes fatigue/pain.


If the nut is too high, this can make it difficult to play in the first position or two, but since you said it's set up properly that seem unlikely to be the issue.

Brian Prunka - 6-4-2024 at 05:11 PM

You could also try tuning down even more and see what the results are like, this will give something of an approximation of trying a set with lower tension.

coolsciguy - 6-5-2024 at 06:32 AM

Hey Brian, this is exactly the type of analysis I was hoping to get from my post, so thank you for your elaborate answer!

Quote:
So assuming your description of the situation is accurate, the tension is not high. You could also try tuning down even more and see what the results are like, this will give something of an approximation of trying a set with lower tension.


Great insight, I actually tried tuning my Lavta down a step to get a sense for lower tension but the instrument didn't respond well and the sound suffered. Having said that, some techniques (like the arabic turn) are harder to implement on the Lavta that I attributed to string tension but it's perhaps due to other factors.



Quote:

I apologize in advance, but the only thing I can think of is that you are mistaken about something (strings, scale length, setup), or your technique is in some way causing the problem (hand position, excessive pressure on the strings).


You are actually very on point and no need to apologize! I am new to Lavta and trying to find my way forward. I did try all the great points you made and that helped a lot. I now realize that the left hand positioning and technique on the Lavta is quite distinctive from the oud and I need to work on my left hand to establish technique. After analyzing my left hand, I realized most tension build up is with my thumb due to it's positioning of the thumb behind fret board. This will be my next issue to resolve and now I have the tools to do it because of your insight.



Thank you again Brian for your invaluable insight!