Mike's Oud Forums

Need Advice on Tuning

palestine48 - 7-31-2005 at 12:20 AM

This question is a little embarrasing but I hope I can get a positive answer here.

How long did it take you to be able to perfectly tune each pair of strings in unison to each other? Was there anything that blocked you from able to mastering this such as lack of musical foundation or an issue with the oud itself such as bad pegs?


I have been using my oud for about a year and I can generally tell when my oud is out of tune but as much as i tune it, I seem to be able to never hit the "sweet spots". I'll get frustrated and become content with i've done for the past half hour or so and want to get on with jamming when I know im not perfectly tuned, but off by a small degree.

Is there something wrong with my hearing or is it just part of the learning process? Like I said, I know its slightly out of tune because I can recognize what a nicely oud tune sounds like but I just can't seem to hit it.


For the record, Jameel once posted a video of an oud lesson Simon Shaheen gave. I showed it to my teacher/uncle and he was able to tell Simon was out of tune within the first few minutes of the video. it was also before simon paid attention to this and attempted to fix his tuning. I relaize my uncle has years of knowledge to be able to point this out but is this something I should be able to distinct at this point in my learning?

Can people please share suggestions or personal stories on this matter?

Thanks,
Rami

shlomi - 7-31-2005 at 12:34 AM

ahlan rami
A: well one of the tricks u can use is playing an over tone at the string octave
and then u will be able to tell if ur tuned
B: if ur using a floating bribge chek if the bribge is the right place
meaning if the fingerboard is 20cm the should 60cm from the nut
1\3the fingerboard 2\3 the body

shlomi

palestine48 - 7-31-2005 at 07:35 AM

can you explain what you mean by overtone at the string octave?

An yes I do have a floatng bridge, My uncle can tune my oud pretty good. Better than me

shlomi - 7-31-2005 at 09:13 AM

well. . .
for example take th highest string if its tuned to C go to last position
and put your finger on the octave insted of presing the string just put your finger on the note if the sound is vibrating that means u r out of tune
you can do the same with the fifth note on the same string (G)

DJCrabtree - 8-1-2005 at 12:57 AM

Like a lot of people on this forum, I use a chromatic tuner. I started out tuning my oud from an electronic keyboard, but never trusted my ears. For a couple of months I spent more time worrying about whether the oud was in tune or not than I did playing, and that's no good. So let a little piece of technology take the weight

palestine48 - 8-3-2005 at 04:56 PM

I use a chromnatic tuner when I am lazy. A keyboard when I have time. I can match the keyboard ok. Its really when I tune the double course is the issue. I still want to learn to do it imaculately though.

Any other advice would be great. Please keep it coming

Greg - 8-3-2005 at 07:37 PM

Rami,

The method used by (pre-electronic tuner) piano tuners has always been to listen to the “beats.” When you have two notes played at the same time in near (but not exact) pitch unison, you can hear a sort of throbbing sound, referred to as “beats.”
It is a result of the interaction between the two vibrations and the way your brain perceives them. As the two pitches (frequencies) get nearer to each other, the beats get slower and they disappear altogether when the two strings are perfectly in tune. There is a scientific basis for this. As you know, the musical note A is 440 Hz. (cycles per second). If one string is tuned to a perfect A (440 Hz) and another is tuned to 444 Hz. The number of beats per second will be 4.
So you do not need to be a person with perfect pitch to be a good tuner. A piano tuner can be tone-deaf, so long as he or she can hear the beats.

It is worthwhile to mention that it is much easier to hear the beats when one of the frequencies is moving, than if both are stationary. So, once you have one of the pair of strings tuned (with your electronic tuner) then move the other one up and down smoothly by small amounts hearing the beats come and go as you pass through the perfect spot. Using that technique should assist you to set the string at exactly the correct tuning.
(Piano tuners use felt wedges to dampen (mute) any strings not currently being worked on. This avoids the confusion of hearing beats from other strings picking up harmonics from your plucked string and vibrating in “sympathy.” When I tune my wife’s santur, I always lay heavy pieces of fabric on all other strings. You may find little rubber wedges between all other string pairs will assist you in the "beats" process on your oud.)

There is one further possible problem, however. The above method will get the two strings in perfect unison when played open. String making is an imperfect art, so it is possible that when you finger a note further up the neck, the tuning could be out. This then becomes a problem of another kind and you may need to experiment with string brands and types to find well matched pairs. As mentioned elsewhere on the forums, it is sometime useful to reverse one of the strings end for end.

Good luck!

Regards,

Greg

Greg - 8-3-2005 at 08:08 PM

The "overtone" method mentioned by shlomi is actually a method used by most guitarists for tuning and checking intonation. For tuning, it uses the "harmonics" on the 5th and 7th frets of a guitar. The intonation of an individual string is usually checked by comparing the harmonic at the 12th fret and the fretted note at the same fret.

The harmonic is created by just lightly touching the string directly above the fret, rather than actually fretting the string. This process is much more useful for guitars because the fret is used as the reference. But that same process can assist when tuning oud. Of course the harmonics can only be found at certain intervals on the string

Regards,

Greg

palestine48 - 8-3-2005 at 08:52 PM

Thangs Greg. I understand better now. My knowledge of musical terminology is limited so it was a bit hard to understand what he was explaining. I recall doing what you were explaning when I briefly sudied the guitar. I would tune the A string by fretting the 5th fret of the E string. Then tune the D by Fretting the 5th the A. Then the G B E accrodingly. Is that what what you meant?

I understand what you mean about beats or frequencies. Its the sound waves that occur when you hit the string and I understand that the waves should match accordingly. If you hear 2 sets of waves or "beats" then its not perfect. Am I Intrepiting what you are saying correctly?

As for moving it up down and its better moving one than both being stationary. Let me see if I understand this correctly. What I currently do is Tune one string with the tuner or piano, then I strum the course. What comes next is I will move the out of tune string up and down to match the tuned strings frequency. Is what I am doing correct?

Also u raise a good point when I press a note it may sound out of tune even when I feel I tuned it right. I do get that sometimes.

Thanks for the feedback.

Greg - 8-3-2005 at 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by palestine48
Thangs Greg. I understand better now. My knowledge of musical terminology is limited so it was a bit hard to understand what he was explaining. I recall doing what you were explaning when I briefly sudied the guitar. I would tune the A string by fretting the 5th fret of the E string. Then tune the D by Fretting the 5th the A. Then the G B E accrodingly. Is that what what you meant?

No. The system you mention involves fretting an A note on the E string. I am referring to using harmonics, not fretted notes.
Quote:
I understand what you mean about beats or frequencies. Its the sound waves that occur when you hit the string and I understand that the waves should match accordingly. If you hear 2 sets of waves or "beats" then its not perfect. Am I Intrepiting what you are saying correctly?

Yes
Quote:
As for moving it up down and its better moving one than both being stationary. Let me see if I understand this correctly. What I currently do is Tune one string with the tuner or piano, then I strum the course. What comes next is I will move the out of tune string up and down to match the tuned strings frequency. Is what I am doing correct?

Whilst that is a perfectly legitimate technique, it is not what I am describing. With the "beats" technique, you don't strum, you pick each string quietly and individually and then tune one. You hear the beats whilst the two notes continue to sustain. Of course this presumes that your instrument is capable of reasonable sustain when an open string is plucked.

Regards,

Greg

jerusalemdaughter - 8-4-2005 at 03:59 PM

(Asking questions)

This is the first time I hold a stringed instrument in my hands, so if I say something foolish, please forgive me.

I was wondering if anyone has what a tuned oud should sound like, so I can have something to work from... something that goes string by string...

I know they have it for guitar's on-line, but I'm have difficulty finding it for ouds....

any suggestions??
Jami

Greg - 8-4-2005 at 04:03 PM

Jami,

Is your oud Arabic or Turkish?

Regards,

Greg

SamirCanada - 8-4-2005 at 08:59 PM

I once found it on Pablo's oud page. For a arabic type oud.

palestine48 - 8-4-2005 at 10:03 PM

Greg, I see that you are online. I apologize I hope you do not get impatient with me. But I tried your technique. One is tuned correctly. So I pick the other string of the course. I am not sure if I am hearing the two conflict with eacher. I do not see how I can if I hit both strings. What am I doing worng?

Greg - 8-4-2005 at 11:39 PM

Hi Rami,

Pick the first (in tune) string and let it ring. Then pick the other string and move its tuning up and down. As it gets close you should hear the beats. The closer you get, the slower the beats. It works well on my Bashir style oud but maybe that's because it has very long sustain.

Regards,

Greg

Oud

jerusalemdaughter - 8-6-2005 at 10:52 AM

Greg,

I have an Arabic oud. :D

Greg - 8-6-2005 at 11:56 PM

I think the most popular tuning for Arabic oud is:
C FF AA DD gg cc (low to high).

I have made a 32 second midi file for each of these notes and archived them in a zip file. To save the file to your hard drive, please right click on the link and "save target as."

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Greg

jerusalemdaughter - 8-7-2005 at 06:34 PM

:wavey:Thanks so much Greg! That was alot of help!
:D

Jami