revaldo29 - 9-28-2005 at 12:55 PM
Hey all,
I have always been curious about the use of the violin in arabic music. Is the violin used here in the west the same as the violin used for
arabic music? Is the tuning different and if so, how is the violin tuned for arabic music? I've always toyed with the idea of going to my local music
store and buying a beginner violin.
Adnan
Elias - 9-28-2005 at 01:15 PM
Personally i don't know much about violin...the only thing i know is that my violin player use LA-RE-la-re (A-D-a-d-)tuning...i don't know if it's a
standard arabic tuning or not, and plays with an italian luthiery instrument...so i think that maybe the instrument could be the same...i
suppose...but i am not sure...
...mmm better if i come back to my oud... 
elias
SamirCanada - 9-28-2005 at 01:15 PM
HEheh Adnan its nice you mention it. since thats exactly what I did. but Iam gona stick to oud I think.
First the tuning is diferent in part. A violin has 4 strings right.. and the 2 lowest ones on a arabic Kaman ( kamanjah ) is tuned diferently then a
western violin. So in arabic its G3 D4 G4 D5 and I think western is E A D G.
http://www.ethnomusic.ucla.edu/ensembles/worldmusic/neareast/Kaman....
here a link to hear one and read about the tuning etc. The other thing is that I went out and I rented one for 50$ for 3 months. you could find
something like that around you. Most violin dealers rent them out to students.
Salam
revaldo29 - 9-28-2005 at 01:38 PM
Hey Samir,
How difficult did you find it? You said that you ended up sticking to oud so it must have been pretty tough : ).
Adnan E.
SamirCanada - 9-28-2005 at 01:49 PM
yah Its verry hard to get the technique for the bow. especialy if your just messing around. But I could play all right when I put it on the side and
used a risha 
)
Jonathan - 9-28-2005 at 01:55 PM
Pretty amazing, though, how many great oud players are also great violin players.
Jameel - 9-28-2005 at 02:44 PM
I've played violin from about the 3rd grade. But not much arabic music, sad to say. I haven't picked it up much over the years. I think the violin is
great for learning the maqamat, since the notes are sustained and constant. With the oud, it's more difficult for me. It's a beautiful instrument, but
the oud is not known as the prince of tarab for nothing. But who has time to learn two instruments? I surely don't....
kasos - 9-28-2005 at 07:46 PM
I'd like to offer some encouragement, and maybe a little advice, to anyone considering learning the violin.
I've played classical Western European violin for the better part of three decades - I've also taught it from time to time. The violin can indeed
be pretty scary for the first 3-6 months, but after this initial period, it gets a lot easier. The lack of frets is unlikely to trouble an oud
player - if you can play maqam on the oud, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it on the violin - and as mentioned earlier in the thread,
the sustain you get on a violin may actually make it easier in the learning stages.
The real issue for those visiting this site would undoubtably be the bow. There really isn't any trick or substitute for putting in time, to get
used to the proper balance between bow speed and pressure - until you get this balance, the instrument's rather unforgiving, and is capable of
producing some truly horrible sounds (by comparison, I think it's much harder to sound that awful so easily on an oud....). The problem is that
there's no uniform "correct" bow speed or pressure - the amount of pressure required fluctuates on an ongoing basis according to the speed of the bow,
and vice versa. This perhaps sounds complicated, but with practice, it readily becomes second nature, a little like riding a bicycle. For most
people, it starts to click after a few weeks, which is why I suggested that beginners allow themselves 3 to 6 months before they jump to any
conclusions as to the instrument, or to their own ability to play it.
By the way, thanks for starting this thread... I've known for a while now there was a tradition of using european style violins for Middle Eastern
music, but I was not really aware of the different tunings used. Something new to try out soon....
I'm a little curious about something though.... although I see recordings where the oud is used with European style violins & cellos (as in
SamirCanada's Kennedy centre post) and recordings where the oud or saz type instruments are used together with traditional eastern bowed strings, like
the Ottoman kemence, Persian kamencheh or bowed rebaba, I haven't encountered much in the way of mixing of European bowed strings together with
Eastern bowed strings. With the possible exception of cello, which seems to show up in a number of Turkish recordings containing kemence, I can't
yet think of a single example where you find kemence or rebab paired with a violin..... I like each very much in their own way, but am a little
mystified why a pairing wouldn't be attempted more often (either for presenting Eastern or Western musical idioms). Does anybody have any theories
on this, or examples to set me straight? Thanks, Mark
bcearthtones - 9-29-2005 at 05:41 AM
I got a instrument for $2 (needs the beard remade) it seems to be a 3/4 size violin, but it has metal strings.
Mark, is the unusual? I do not know anything about violins, but I thought the evolved from gut strings to nylon. Any idea how to tune it?
It seems to small for my hands to play, but I'd love to fix it up for my son.
Thanks,
Scott
kasos - 9-29-2005 at 07:03 AM
Hi Scott
Nice to hear from you again. Re strings: Steel violin strings are pretty much standard now - when I first started playing, gut strings were more
frequently used and still generally available, but over the last few decades metal strings have since been improved enough that they're very
competitive on quality of sound, and they're much more sturdy - as a result, they've basically taken over the market, and you really have to look hard
(and usually pay extra) for gut strings if you still want them. I've been a little out of the loop on new technology since moving to Flin Flon from
Winnipeg ten years ago, but entirely nylon strings for a violin (like the top strings of a classical guitar) would be a new one on me... I suppose
that nylon might give some of the same loose resonance associated with gut - but I'd be concerned about pitch bend when tugging at a purely nylon
string with the bow - nylon wound sounds a little more sensible, and it may well be that these are available in centres larger than my own.... In any
event, for a beginner, there's absolutely no problem using metal strings.
Re tuning: Assuming you're intending to use a standard European classical tuning (also used in North American folk styles such as Appalachian or
country & western), usually the smaller size violins are tuned the same way as a full size instrument, in fifths, GDAE (lowest to highest)
starting on the G below middle "C". It's also the same tuning as a mandolin, if you're familiar with that instrument. Most of the teaching
materials commonly available in North America for the early stages of violin playing (such as Suzuki method books, etc.) are based on this tuning, so
it might be the practical choice at first - but please check out the earlier part of this thread for alternative Eastern tunings if playing music from
that region....
You're right about the intervals being pretty small on a partial size violin - however, this size instrument is still playable by adults, and I
wouldn't feel shy about playing it yourself, just to get familiar with the instrument - I've got a three quarter size instrument at home left over
from when my teenage kids were little, and I find it sort of fun to play from time to time - though it's significantly less resonant than a full size
instrument, it has a brightness and ease when doing quick passages that's got a charm of its own. If you start enjoying tinkering with the little
one, a student model full size violin can usually be obtained for a very modest price, too.
Take care, Mark
Jonathan - 9-29-2005 at 07:10 AM
Is there a standard tuning that is used in Turkey and the Arab world? Or is it pretty much the same as European tuning?
Brian Prunka - 9-29-2005 at 12:18 PM
The Arabic tuning is usually G D G D (low to high), so the two lowest strings are the same as western violin, and the two higher strings are tuned
down a whole step. (western tuning being G D A E)
I've heard recordings, though, where Arab players tuned the entire instrument down a whole step ( F C F C), assuming the whole ensemble does the same.
I don't know about turkish musicians; it would seem that standard western tuning would work fine . . .
akram - 9-30-2005 at 02:53 AM
Brian Prunka it is corect
i play the violin
akram
bcearthtones - 9-30-2005 at 06:19 AM
Thanks for that Mark.
This is a little off topic for the thread, but have you recieved you Pipa yet?
kasos - 9-30-2005 at 07:30 AM
Hi Scott
No, I don't have the pipa yet, it's going to be a long process. The instrument was purchased off E-bay US (the seller was in Florida, and wasn't
into international shipping), and it's getting sent to a parcel receiving service in a town on the North Dakota-Manitoba border. Then I have to get
to the border, in connection with a trip to southern Manitoba - I'm in one of Manitoba's more northerly towns, so this only happens every few months.
The US border town in question is close to where my brother lives, so I can work in a visit with him in as part of the process. However, I expect
it'll be November before I actually get the instrument in my hands.
I'm also waiting expectantly on another instrument from that part of the world, though. A friend of mine does contract work at a mine in Mongolia,
and I found out by phone yesterday that he was able to purchase a full size Morin Khuur for me. The Morin Khuur is a fiddle with a wooden
trapezoidal shaped sound box, the full size ones being 3 feet or more tall, played more or less like a cello. It's usually decorated with a horse
head on the headstock, so it's often referred to as a "horse head fiddle". You may remember a tiny (though playable) version on my couch in the
picture I posted on the lavta thread you posted a while ago.
The Mongolians claim they invented the idea of bowing stringed instruments, and it's probably true that the common ancestor of all fiddles comes from
one of the horse cultures of Central Asia, sometime around 400 AD, when the first references pop up in Chinese sources.
You'd asked earlier in this thread about gut vs nylon vs steel strings for violin playing. It seems appropriate to add at this point that the
earliest fiddles used horsehair for the strings, as well as for the bow, and this feature has been retained in the Morin Khuur used today. The
little version of the instrument I already have is also strung with horsehair, and it reacts very differently to the action of the bow than the metal
strings I'm more accustomed to (even the other oriental fiddles I've acquired use metal strings). I'm struggling to depict the experience of
playing on horsehair without resorting to adjectives like "earthy" or "archaic" that romanticize without saying anything very specific - the best I
can quickly put together by way of describing the difference is that instead of the taut bite or chiff you get from digging the bow into a metal
string, there's a sort of windlike swish as the different threads of the horsehair string engage the hair of the bow in sequence. It's subtle, but
to a long time bowed string player, it's sort of like the winetaster discovering an entirely new sort of wine....
Unfortunately, I don't get to see this instrument either, until my friend returns from Asia. It's not too unpleasant though, a little like a kid
waiting for Christmas....
Take care, Mark
amfuente - 9-30-2005 at 10:52 AM
I played violin and mandolin which are tuned the same in 5ths. When I started oud a couple of weeks ago I tuned my mandolin GDGC which coincides with
oud tuning CGADGC. As mandolin is small I can easily carry around and work on ideas to later play on oud.